Buttonville Tower set to close in July!

[linecrew]

Sorry where does it say the CZ is capped at 2000ft? Is the change in the Nov 8 CFS?

This AIP Supplement which had been out since September and replaced an AIC that apparently ran sometime before that.

[gustind]

FL_CH I've taken your lead by looking into AICs and have found this AIP Supplement:

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... 50.pdf#top

To enhance aircraft traffic management at the Toronto Lester B. Pearson International Airport (CYYZ), the
ceiling of the Buttonville control zone (CZ) will be lowered to 2,000 feet above sea level (ASL). In addition, the
2,000-foot ASL Toronto terminal control area (TCA) boundary is being expanded to encompass most of the
Buttonville CZ (see map sketch below).

This change takes effect 13 September 2018, at 0901Z Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Refer to this
AIP Supplement until the amended Toronto visual flight rules (VFR) terminal area chart (VTA) (AIR 1900) is
available in Spring 2019.

[photofly]

That’s hilarious. That notice was published in September, but they forgot to tell the guy who updates the CFS (last edition valid from November 8 and still says 2500) or file a NOTAM :whistle:

[gustind]

Thanks linecrew! Had I paid any attention to the notification I got saying you wrote before I submitted my post, I would have avoided the double post.

That being said, what is the general expectation for people to have when flying and being familiar to all products? If I walked in for a flight to YKZ with my VNC, CFS and map, I would not see anywhere the changes as stated in that supplement and the NOTAMs do not point to anything. Also, I have none of the above so I don't know if any changes have been reflected in those publications, I just assume they haven't.

[linecrew]

You're right from a legal standpoint, but if you look at it in the context of student pilots flying around, I definitely see how it may become confusing and risky. It's not unheard of to have students deviate from assigned altitudes by more than 100 ft, so all it takes is two of them deviate by just enough... Admittedly, having a tower at St Hubert didn't prevent this type of an accident.

If you look at this document which TC put out 8 years ago, no portion of the circuit pattern over the field is above circuit altitude, only at circuit altitude. In fact, it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in! (See the note on the bottom left in blue). I guess the idea being that if you're all on the MF (no NORDOs allowed) you can coordinate where you will be entering the circuit with your fellow aviators. As for the student pilots in the area, their instructors would have taught this all to them before they would have deemed them safe enough to fly solo, especially if it's their home airport.

[photofly]

it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in!

As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.

Crossing over to the dead side 500 above (or whatever the airspace will allow) is done not as part of the circuit but as the way to be able to fly back overhead at circuit altitude to join.

Every student pilot should know that, from before their first solo to an uncontrolled airfield. Perhaps it’s not the students who are going to be the problem?

[skybluetrek]

it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in!

As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.

Crossing over to the dead side 500 above (or whatever the airspace will allow) is done not as part of the circuit but as the way to be able to fly back overhead at circuit altitude to join.

Every student pilot should know that, from before their first solo to an uncontrolled airfield. Perhaps it’s not the students who are going to be the problem?

Exactly. Well said.

Thanks linecrew! Had I paid any attention to the notification I got saying you wrote before I submitted my post, I would have avoided the double post.

That being said, what is the general expectation for people to have when flying and being familiar to all products? If I walked in for a flight to YKZ with my VNC, CFS and map, I would not see anywhere the changes as stated in that supplement and the NOTAMs do not point to anything. Also, I have none of the above so I don't know if any changes have been reflected in those publications, I just assume they haven't.

Tower lets you know(after you've entered the Charly), happens on a daily basis pretty much.

[linecrew]

As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.

I stand corrected per the TC AIM RAC 4.5.2:

"Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg."

That TC document I linked to in my above post doesn't clarify if there is a ground station or not.

[skybluetrek]

As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.

I stand corrected per the TC AIM RAC 4.5.2:

"Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg."

That TC document I linked to in my above post doesn't clarify if there is a ground station or not.

There is no ground station. And I hope the fbo guys don't start giving advisory on the freq.

Here's the Notice of Change you're looking for, someone had already posted it here before. http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... ure-EN.pdf

[PlanePaully]

I have a question for the big boys: If an unaware pilot busts the 2000 foot cap on the CZ and crosses the zone at 2500, will landing traffic for Pearson 23/24 at crossing at 3000 ft get a TCAS RA?

[gustind]

Quite possible, yes. Although I can't imagine too many scenarios where you'd be vectored that far out and be at 3000ft. If that were the case, it'd probably be too IFR of a day for GA traffic. My $.02

[yeah yeah]

PlanePaully: most likely there won’t be a RA. YYZ 24L/R traffic doesn’t begin descent below 3000 til about 7-8 miles final, well past KZ. The 1000 ft vertical separation needed is for wake turbulence. It is assumed that KZ circuit traffic is of the light weight category while YYZ 24L/R ILS traffic would be medium-heavy.

[PlanePaully]

PlanePaully: most likely there won’t be a RA. YYZ 24L/R traffic doesn’t begin descent below 3000 til about 7-8 miles final, well past KZ. The 1000 ft vertical separation needed is for wake turbulence. It is assumed that KZ circuit traffic is of the light weight category while YYZ 24L/R ILS traffic would be medium-heavy.

Thanks for the explanation. I have been told by a number of people that Pearson 23/24 landing traffic regularly crosses over CYKZ at 3000. Nice to know that there is generally a bigger buffer than that between us and them.

[goingnowherefast]

Students train at non tower equipped airports all the time. It will just require instructors to modify the training to suit the new reality.

If the student can't master control tower procedures, they don't go solo. If the student can't master uncontrolled airport procedures, they don't go solo. It's just an adaptation, nothing else.

[photofly]

Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet

Sob.