Your Right Seater.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:38 pm

Once upon a time, I hated co-pilot's. They were a nuisance, just put me 182 lbs heavier etc,etc. Difference between a duck and a co-pilot - a duck can fly ha,ha,ha. But now I am a changed person. In my opinion, the two best safety devices in any complex airplane flown IFR is the second pilot and good SOP's and I almost will refuse to fly single pilot any more. Just out of curiosity, how many pilots are there that can relate how a second pilot has saved their bacon. I had a heart attack many years ago and I do not know if I would have made it home with the extra stress of single-pilot. Will you be able to resist pressure from an irrational customer as well by yourself. I had a good right seater one time that was able to side track a totally out of control customer so well he finally gave up on his ridiculous and dangerous request. Told the guy to go to hell with such finess that the guy was actually looking forward to the trip. Had to give the kid the next 4 landings for that one. How about your stories and comments.

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:56 pm

I still hate co-pilots, thats why the autopilot was invented. (just kidding) I've done most of my flying single pilot IFR and I loved it. Now days I have a co-pilot, and an autopilot, they really come in handy at 3am about eleven hours into a night shift ZZZZZZZ.

All joking aside, I haven't had any overly interesting co-pilot experiances YET. But when I do I'll let you know.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:05 pm

oldtimer:

I could not agree with u more!! I know we've all done SP IFR, but everyone I have ever met in aviation agrees that SP IFR is all fun & games until the WX goes down and the plane starts acting-up!

When I started my career as a rampie, we had all types of piston and turbine multi-engine machines and a pile of SP-rated guys. They used to take me along whenever they could, and I always thought that they were just doing me a favour. But I noticed quickly that they all deligated their workload, having me deal with customers, grab plates and charts, work the radios, order fuel, etc., etc.

Remember, these were high time, Multi-engine, SP IFR Captains, who had pretty much seen it all! They all said the same thing, that SP IFR should become a thing of the past! Years later I couldn't agree with them more!

Another important thing they all agreed on was that to run two-crew properly you needed strong SOP's and you need CRM! I also agree!

Every once in a while I run into one of those 'classic' pilots who laughs at two-crew, says it's a joke, makes fun of F/O's, and tells me how great a SP IFR guy he is! The irony is that when I ask him what his goal in aviation is he always says the same thing, "the airlines"!

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:30 pm

Interesting change of heart old timer. You probably hadn't sat in the right seat much before your (previously) poor attitude changed. Glad you came around.

Most ignorant captains have never been co-joes. I know. I've flown with a few of them.

Without SOP's and a proper crew environment there are a few PIC's out there who aren't worth their weight in poop (usually 200 + pounds of it). How does FSI put it? "The best safety device in any aircraft is a well trained crew..."

Trying to fly SPIFR with a co-joe sitting next to you is about as productive as pissing into the wind. Keeping them in the loop, coaching them, and most importantly allowing them to make mistakes in a safe environment so that they can learn from them will go a long way to ensuring they are there to bail you out when yogurt hits the fan. CJ

Mach1 · Post by **Mach1** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:08 am

Single Pilot IFR should go the way of the dinosaur. IF Transport were serious about improving 703 safety, that would be the way to do it. Ofcourse there would need to be some exceptions, but the exception should not be the rule… proof of need for the exception.

Treetops · Post by **Treetops** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:48 am

The only three phrases a co-pilot should know:

1. Must have been the wind Sir
2. I buy the next round Sir
3. I'll take the fat one Sir

pinkus · Post by **pinkus** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:39 pm

I love two crew. I have rarely flown single pilot. Yes, a bad co pilot sucks, and makes your job harder. Nothing is worse than baby sitting. But as a Captain you have to teach them. The ones that accept your help, and show willingness, usually come out okay. Those coffee sippers, who are lazy...usually make their own bed and either leave...or have people take the left seat over and over while they sit there dumbfounded.

I have had the other guy/gal save my bacon a many times. Not life or death, but enough to catch something that i missed. Something bad only has to happen once. If my cojoe, competent or not catches it...then they are worht their weight. Late at night, harcore IFR, iccing, thunderstorms, or just a bad sleep...thank you Mr. Cojoe!

Pinky

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:48 am

I wish I could have hopped in the left seat right away like some folks were able to a few years ago. Then I wouldn't be making a box of kraft dinner last 4 meals. That was the industry when I came into it. Mr. Insurance man has taken care of that for me. Have some respect for us. We have to learn from you. You attitude is self-perpetuating. If you treat your f/o's like crap what do you expect to happen when we get promoted. After all I have seen I think I have learned better than to do that.

Of all the f/o's at my company I can only think of one that probably doesn't make the grade, but still works hard. Yes the f/o's you describe I have seen and were quickly sent walking and probably ended up at transport. As you can see from the signature the worst flights I have had were with people who hadn't been f/o's before. And yes there are some pretty crappy captains out there as well. As a whole they are okay. A few rotten apples spoil it....

Give your f/o a chance, for they may be flying you to florida when you retire.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:40 am

At my company, all the F/o's are experienced pilots. They just don't have as much time on type as the Captains. They still have lots of useful skills and their input is certainly valuable. I know; I'm an F/o

I flew single-pilot IFR for thousands of hours before I came here, and I thought I wouldn't like the 2-crew environment. Turns out I think it's great. It's really nice to have someone else to back you up, especially considering we don't have autopilots on our aircraft. It's also nice having someone to talk to during the 3am flights between Upper Dog Testicle and Lower Dog Testicle. I enjoyed flying single-pilot IFR because it gave me confidence in my abilities; I'd show up for work, pick up my flight plan, then haul a group of businessmen across the country (frequently border-hopping) and back again all by my self. But I won't go back to it if I have the choice. A good 2-crew operation is one of the best safety devices out there, and considering the industry segment I am currently in (medevac, frequently flying non-precision circling approaches into northern short gravel strips at night in all weather) is more risky than others, I want every advantage I can get.

When I fly I don't look at the other person as "Captain", and I don't think they look at me like "stinkin' F/o" We are both just meat puppets who want to get home at the end of the day. so we worth together to do just that.

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:39 am

Since it seems many of the 'Captains' posting on this tread are 'God's gift to aviation', maybe some can explain how they help a less experienced F/O learn? Is it not part of a Captain's job, even if not explicitly stated, to help his/her F/O develop their skills?

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:06 pm

csnj. you are so right about the training thing. I have had more pilots put a monkey wrench in the works by trying to teach when it is not their job to do so and in many operations, it is strictly forbidden but you can always coach and encourage and share. This is what I tried to do and the main reason I quit flying the Learjet. All the Lear copilots did was paperwork and radio. That was bullshit and since I couldn't change, I quit. I then went on the Gulfstream and we didn't share equally, I let the co-jo do more than his share till he (we didn't have she's - don't know why) developed an acceptable level of expertise.

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:06 pm

csnj you must be a real prince to work with (for?). You'll notice I didn't say 'teach', that was you. As oldtimer stated, helping through advice and relating of experience was more what I had in mind. By the time an F/O is on the line they should know how to fly the airplane. It is the 'finesse' part a decent Captain can, and will, help out with.

I take it no one ever offered you any pointers. Maybe you were born with all the knowledge/experience necessary to be a 'tyrannical meglomaniac' type of pilot.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:53 pm

That Co-joe is going to go left seat someday. Unless you share some of your wisdom with him/her and offer more responsibility to challenge him/her, you're making that tranisition that much more difficult on the individual, the company, and the f/o's they'll fly with.

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:46 pm

So can I assume then, you expect everyone, no matter their experience level, to have the same capabilities as you? If they show any lacking, the correction of choice is to treat them like a dog; make them feel like shit and hope they understand and remember.

If the 'tyrant' had only enlightened you matter-of-factly of the correct terminology you would not have learned? How come? Wouldn't the desire to become the most competent pilot possible be enough to overcome this 'glaring inadequacy'? Is fear of being s**t upon again the only way to learn?

You must have been an abused child. I feel for anyone that has the misfortune to be your right seat 'dog'.

If you are posting for a wind-up, disregard the above.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:08 pm

Cpt snj, your methods work on dogs because they want to please their owner, no matter how much of an ass he/she is. Eventually you're going to humiliate the wrong person and deprive your company of two pilots; the co joe who gets fired, and you while you recuperate in hospital after he takes you out back of the hangar and beats you to a bloody pulp.

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:09 pm

csnj, how did you get to be so bitter and twisted?

I do the walk fine thanks. I won't ever 'see' the world as you do. It seems too sad a way to go through this career.

Maybe one day you will see. Nah, not likely.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:30 pm

Good paraphrased quote: "there is no such art as teaching, only the art of helping people learn" Straight out of the FIG for those who've taken the time to read it. As a 2 crew PIC you have the opportunity to open doors for people. You also have the opportunity to slam doors on fingers. Decide how you want to be remembered.

And as for the pissing on electric fence thing, yeah it hurts like hell, but it's better than pissing your pants.

CJ

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:48 am

Holy Smokes CSNJ they should do a CRM study on you. Remember Tenerife. The KLM captain scolded the second officer for asking a question about the Pan Am position. Now they're all dead.

Whether you like it or not, you giving your f/o the gears about a screw up instead of explaining it in a polite yet assertive way, you make him not want to talk to you. Instead of watching for your mistakes, he/she is imagining you wiping out going down the stairs. I understand repeated mistakes and losers aside, but frankly your attitude stinks.

I have a feeling I know who your a$$hole captain is. I think I flew with him too.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:15 am

To all you guys that are responding to the disgusting attitude shown by S&J I have a suggestion.

Send him to me and I will sit him in the left seat and do some in depth assement of his true skills not only as a possible Captain but his skills as a pilot.

I do not believe in degrading anyone in an airplane for any reason, especially to teach them.

However maybe a real assesment of C&J as a pilot and person would be something the troops would be interested in reading.

You guys pay his airfare and I'll do the flight check for nothing.

Cat

SplitS · Post by **SplitS** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:28 am

Let me play devil's advocate here and say I understand CSNJ's point. I think his point is his frustration with a lack of professionalism in the cockpit. Im not sure how inefectual his copilots are/have been but perhaps he demands a level of ability/professionalism that he isnt seeing in his right seaters. Is this wrong? I dont think so. CSNJ does point out that he will give the newbies a "break" but expects more from higher time guys. Would he be a fun guy to fly with? Probably not but Ive flown with a few exmilitary old timers and they would tear me a new one when I screwed up - there was no room for excuses with them. It made me demand more of myself. That was rewarding.. Those of us who have flown with various captains/FOs know how personality shapes the cockpit environment. I suggest that it is easy to shit on a FO for screwing up but if CSNJ could instill the same respect for professionalism without derision he would be one hell of a guy to fly with.