Wesjet encore or jazz ?

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Saubia
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Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Saubia »

All is on the subject;)
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FL007
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by FL007 »

Saubia wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:54 am
All is on the subject;)
Depends what you want. Could be at Jazz and get the pfo from AC and you'd be facing potentially staying there for your entire career, which isn't a bad thing.

Or go to Encore with uncertain guaranteed flow to WestJet mainline in 6-10 years or apply to AC.

Both are decent options, I think Jazz has solidified their wawcon and outlook for the next 5+ years where encore the last time I heard has no long term pay scale. As well another thing to keep in mind is Encore will most likely be fighting for a contract very soon so things could change relatively quickly for the good or bad.
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atphat
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by atphat »

If a mainline position is your end goal then it really is a no brainer. As it stands Encore is the only regional today with a guaranteed flow to mainline. As “guaranteed” as something can be in this business.

That being said, I’m sure working 6 years at Encore waiting for your flow wouldn’t be the most fun. Then getting to mainline and sitting forever in the right seat to only go back to the bottom of the pay scale in the left seat when you finally do get your upgrade. How long would it take a new hire Encore FO to get to the top of the pay scale at Mainline? 20 years?

At least you’d get your mainline spot. Most want that these days. Plus. You can always apply at AC the entire time you’re in the WJ family.
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Inverted2
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Inverted2 »

If you stick it out Jazz is a pretty good place. (I made 170k last year) If AC is your goal I would say there’s no guarantee about it. It’s just an interview and I swear they draw names from a hat. Maybe Encore is better. I don’t know but AC is taking a lot of their pilots. They have a proper flow through at least to their main line.
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Air.Field
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Air.Field »

If mainline is your goal, Encore. Quicker upgrades (they are hiring DEC) Jazz upgrades are about 2 yrs, maybe more. Guarantee flow to mainline, and I'm sure after the dust settles, Swoop. AC is hiring large numbers from Encore. Jazz just has the random shot at AC.

If to stay at a regional, Jazz. Better WAWCON, benefits, choice of aircraft, training, etc
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Bede
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Bede »

Contrary to the endless ads on this site, I believe that Encore may be the fastest pat to Air Canada.
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Xonga013
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Xonga013 »

Inverted2 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 pm
If you stick it out Jazz is a pretty good place. (I made 170k last year) If AC is your goal I would say there’s no guarantee about it. It’s just an interview and I swear they draw names from a hat. Maybe Encore is better. I don’t know but AC is taking a lot of their pilots. They have a proper flow through at least to their main line.
How much did you have to work to make 170K???
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Victory
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Victory »

AC mainline recently changed up their hiring website and PML process I believe. The latest AC new hire class was over 90% Express pilots. Does this mean they are going start hiring a much higher percentage of Express pilots going forward? Nobody knows.
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by confusedalot »

Xonga013 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 5:46 pm
Inverted2 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 pm
If you stick it out Jazz is a pretty good place. (I made 170k last year) If AC is your goal I would say there’s no guarantee about it. It’s just an interview and I swear they draw names from a hat. Maybe Encore is better. I don’t know but AC is taking a lot of their pilots. They have a proper flow through at least to their main line.
How much did you have to work to make 170K???
[/quot

With the most honest and naive intentions, I have to ask the same question. My two experiences in feeder carriers were of a different era, and these sort of salaries sound fantastic. I suppose they are achievable though if you work all of the time, picking up any and all open flying, and are on the top pay level. Heard about a trainer who pulled in 240K, fantastic income.

As far as PML is concerned, I can believe that they upped the percentage to 90%. Keeps the troops happy with a dream of making it to the big times. Many have, many did not, but the smoke and mirrors serves it's purpose of crewing airframes.

My my, the major airline world has significantly changed; even if there are no guarantees, certainly a whole lot more accessible than in the past. Timing is everything.
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mbav8r
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by mbav8r »

It’s not that difficult actually, I pulled in 140k and at no time did I work more than 16 days a month, had I opted for some OT 170 would not be too hard to get to, I’m only half way ish to top scale.
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altiplano
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by altiplano »

Small class for the most recent AC intake FWIW.

11/12 out of AC Express. The one before that was full of Encore.

They change the way they hire often... take the job with the best pay and conditions... or take the first one that offers you a job. That's how it used to work.
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confusedalot
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by confusedalot »

Got it.

So I can only assume that time and a half kicks in at a very low level of hours, and that double time kicks in pretty quickly?

Hey, I am no mathematician, but I do know basic arithmetic. Once again, not at all disputing the validity of the pay levels, since I find that canadian pilots were always underpaid in any case.

Things seem to be better now than the previous rank and file drivers, except for the big time guys how were always paid good wages, even when their salaries were cut.

Two of the three most recognized mothercorp feeders cannot expect those income levels. Three of the four regionals cannot expect that if you include the regional that no one ever thinks about.

I worked for one of the regionals after yet another company closure in recent times. What can I say, needed a job. No way would I ever attained those sort of salaries, even if I was a management type, which I was not.

Should have stayed at a regional 3 decades ago; I would have done exceedingly better than taking a chance elsewhere :lol: Just by sitting on my butt and going with the flow.

At the end of the day, gotta say that Jazz has a sweet deal. You won't see that sort of income anywhere else except for big red and westjet.
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matthew.oommen
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by matthew.oommen »

Think about what base you want. If you’re okay with Toronto or Calgary, I’d say for many of the above mentioned reasons, Encore will be a great bet. It’s nice to have a spot “secure” at a Mainline. As of right now, AC has the best long term options for mainline guys. So if that is what you want, it doesn’t really matter if you go to Jazz or Encore, they can both get you there. Mind you, as of now, Encore is the faster way to AC for whatever reason. Encore also doesn’t have seniority bidding, so that might help immediately in terms of life style. But jazz pays a ton better in the long term, just in case you don’t make it to AC, and don’t want to keep taking pay cuts to get left seat on the 37/67 here for the next 10 years.
Mind you, great things are on the horizon (hopefully, fingers crossed) once all the negotiations at WJ Mainline are done, so it might be just as good if not better than AC overall in the years to come (just a little optimism/wishful thinking).

Just by the way, this is a good problem to have. Choose wisely, but all roads do lead to Rome.
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by nwopilot »

mbav8r wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:30 pm
It’s not that difficult actually, I pulled in 140k and at no time did I work more than 16 days a month, had I opted for some OT 170 would not be too hard to get to, I’m only half way ish to top scale.
Please tell me how you did this.

I am literally looking at the 2015-2016 contract for jazz and those numbers stated don't make any sense.

Top Tier pay is at 17 years as a captain with Jazz, if hired prior to 2015. (20 years if hired after 2015)

The top rate for 2016 is $125.29 a credit hour. Assuming 85 credits a month that would = 120k and thats the top of the scale!!!

You mentioned that you were only half way to top scale. So lets assume 10 years of service as captain. That is $105.09. Again assuming 85 credits a month that would = $107k.

I don't see how you could have made 140k unless you are counting per diems, but still......... You must have worked some serious overtime just to hit 140k.

Yes of course these numbers are from 2016, but I don't see how it could jump from 107k to 140k with 2 years of inflation.

I found this contract on the negotech goverment union website.

I am probably missing something :rolleyes:
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atphat
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by atphat »

I too am curious how a Jazz pilot can semi-“easily” get to 170k a year. Don’t get me wrong. That’s amazing if it’s true. Can you break it down for us?
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Jet Jockey
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Jet Jockey »

People should stick to what a base salary is as written in the contract when quoting how much they make.

Not everyone wants to work their asses off and make more money by working overtime and certainly, per diems are not/should not be considered as part of any salary.

Per diems are there for you to feed yourself while out on the road and you better never hope our governments decide to remove this loophole from us by starting to tax it as a revenue or requiring receipts for all meals because then your “salary” is going to take a nose dive.
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Air.Field
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Air.Field »

At Jazz, as of July 1st a 20 yr captain would make 129.98/hr and (2% increase each year there after). Guaranteed 77.5/mth, therefore base salary would be 120,881.40.
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by co-joe »

I think Inverted2's counting pre-diem as money. We all know pre-diem is not money...or do we? :lol:

As Bede suggested, the current rumour is that Encore is a better path to AC mainline than the Express carriers are. I've heard this a few different places now, but AC moves the goal posts so frequently.... reality is anybody's guess.
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Inverted2 »

co-joe wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:39 am
I think Inverted2's counting pre-diem as money. We all know pre-diem is not money...or do we? :lol:

As Bede suggested, the current rumour is that Encore is a better path to AC mainline than the Express carriers are. I've heard this a few different places now, but AC moves the goal posts so frequently.... reality is anybody's guess.
I did not include perdiems but I did work a lot of OT. They were handing it out like candy last year and I did about 4-5 extra days per month so yeah a lot of extra work I will say.
Some high credit days I made over $1000 per day. It’s not for everyone though. Some do no overtime and some did way more than me.
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Last edited by Inverted2 on Sun May 20, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rowdy
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Rowdy »

Let's Say you were scheduled the normal 82.5hrs working 14 days that month. A normal month sees anywhere from 3-10 hrs of block growth. Obviously anything over 85 is OT. Pick up two WDO at 4.5hr OT. There is effectively another 13.5hr pay plus the block growth. Still only 16 days worked... and that is assuming min credit WDOs. I’ve had many that were charters or ferries that were +6hr of OT. They can get quite lucrative.

Pick up another WDO here and there and it isn’t hard to see how one could touch 140 in the middle of the pay scale . I was a first year captain and touched 100k. Never worked more than 16 days either.. per diems and performance incentive not included
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Monorail Conductor
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Monorail Conductor »

While were talking about how much you can get at jazz lets not forget about the minimum youre gauranteed. IE jazz has min credit days...
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Saubia
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by Saubia »

Thanks a lot for all your post and it help me a lot. My final goal would be to go to AC at later stage.
(Inverted2 you are the best to change the main topic into smth else :D)
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by confusedalot »

Particularly striked by the encore best route to air canada notion. Naive as I am, finally understood that taking encore guys accomplishes two things; it crews open seats, and weakens the competition..............two birds with one stone so to speak.

Nasty world out there, no wonder I never made it. looks like I don't have the required personality.

Somebody please do something that this country does not end up a one aeroflot country!

Cheers.
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by PT6onH20 »

confusedalot wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:36 pm
Particularly striked by the encore best route to air canada notion. Naive as I am, finally understood that taking encore guys accomplishes two things; it crews open seats, and weakens the competition..............two birds with one stone so to speak.

Nasty world out there, no wonder I never made it. looks like I don't have the required personality.

Somebody please do something that this country does not end up a one aeroflot country!

Cheers.
I heard the last class was nearly all Express...not a teal member at all IIRC.

As for hurting your competition through selective hiring...I think there's lower hanging fruit than encore.

For the OP - it depends if you're a gambling man. But if you go the Jazz route, better make sure you do your homework for the AC interview ;)
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Re: Wesjet encore or jazz ?

Post by daedalusx »

Couple of things I've noticed:

The only reason there was so many express hires on the last AC GS was because of all of the original PML V1 Jazz guys that used their max 2 yrs deferment. The PML V2 is still not flowing and we'll have to see in fall how it's going to stack up with all of the 3+ yrs PML v2 Jazz folks who didn't heard back after their video interview and have re-applied through the new portal. Just because the last class have been 90% Express doesn't mean the next one will - but maybe it will. Nobody knows. Last year Jazz was struggling to staff their planes and I wouldn't be surprised if there was an 'gentlemen's' agreement with AC to temporarily slow down the flow and hire from the competition (win-win). Also remembers that a B-scale yr 1 capt is an amazing bargain for both Jazz and AC (75 per hr vs 100+), I'm sure the bean counters would rather get 2-3 yrs utilization of those crews before letting them go to AC - then when they start to get expensive (yr 5+) then offer them the flow so they can come back to 45. Now that things have slowed down, perhaps the flow will pick up.

If you were to ask me a year ago, I would have said Jazz, right now I would probably say Encore if you have decent time and ATPL. Jazz upgrade-avanza is slowing down a lot. Don't expect the 1-2 yrs upgrade anymore. WDOs have dried up quite a bit (I'm looking at you, FLICA sharks!). Plan to be on reserve for a while. Plan to live on a 37-40k T4 in an expensive city for 2+ years. Forget about commuting, it'll be almost impossible to not loose money even if you work 22 days a month. If you're a capt in a nice 703 job with decent pay and condition and want to go to AC, get a university degree, much better investment than taking the paycut to the regionals for a pretty big gamble. If you're flying a clamped out old navajo, metro, etc, just get that A stamp and go to whichever calls first, it'll probably be an improvement at least safety wise ... after that it's all a coin toss anyhow ...

Ask the ol' Air BC and Canadian Regional guys who missed on the flow; some gets in, some don't - has nothing to do with how great/safe of a driver they are - this industry is all about timing. In the late 90s, some guys went to C3 and some went to WJ - back then probably most would have said C3 was by far the best option and WJ was going to bust ... well guess who are millionaires now and who went back to the bottom of the list ?

In any case, if you're young and dream of the airlines and have the hours and can survive on such a low payscale then get in as quick as you can. If you miss or get behind the wave when the music stops, you'll be one of those guys that are waiting 9+ years for their upgrades and you'll regret it later. Otherwise it's a great time to get a great job in the corporate/703/704/705 world with great pay and much better lifestyle than airlines, possibly at of cost of job security and long term earning potential but otherwise much more fun and rewarding than pavement ILS to ILS 7 legs days sched crap.
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