New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

[HansDietrich]

Once weed becomes legal, every pilot should be able to smoke it if he or she chooses to, the same way we can drink beer, wine and whiskey. Peeing in a cup and testing "positive" for marijuana, does not mean you're intoxicated. Until they find better ways to identify (marijuana induced) intoxication, they should just trust us to do our job. Pilots get paid for risk management. Coming to work "unfit" is one of them. We know not to come to work drunk, ill, on medication, fatigued... or high on weed.

[cncpc]

I predict zero change.

I respectfully disagree.

As someone who has followed (and heavily invested in) the emerging cannabis industry for the better part of three years, I'm quite confident we are about to witness a significant societal change.

Cannabis as you or I know it (bong rips and fat blunts) will only make up a marginal rate of consumption in what is expected to be a $20 Billion industry. Well over half of cannabis sales will be in the form of pills, edibles, beverages, oils and creams. The cannabis beverage market in particular stands to severely disrupt the entire alcohol market as people will gravitate towards uplifting drinks minus the calories, bad hangovers, and negative long term health effects. The potency will vary as wide as the product offering, from barely perceptible to full on couch lock. These numerous products and potencies offered by legalisation will attract a large segment of the population who were not previously inclined to "smoke a doobie" or otherwise partake in the current stigma.

Over the next 5-10 years cannabis will permeate our social fabric to such a degree that it's consumption will be considered normal and celebrated (much like alcohol currently). In this new environment of acceptance, it will be increasingly difficult for pilots (or other safety related personnel) to rationalise their continued abstinence.

Transport Canada's default "zero tolerance" policy is an easy, if not predictable, position for an agency struggling to maintain relevance in the face of relentless budgetary cuts. Unfortunately their position does not recognise the current reality or that of the future. We have roughly 13,000 ATPL's in this country. A good number of them already consume cannabis and I'd argue a good deal more will as cannabis becomes increasingly normalised. In the perfect world Transport Canada would take the initiative to determine what is impairment, and apply guidelines for appropriate use. Unfortunately I think a number of pilots will lose their licence and/or their jobs before we see significant regulatory progress.

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?

I'm certain cannabis use by pilots will be regulated at some point. But it will take a number of years, an endless amount of studies, and most likely some dramatic case law to make it a reality. In the mean time I would suggest following the rules, no matter how dumb or redundant they seem.

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

In the course of drafting a workplace impairment policy at a previous employer, I contacted a RAMO to ask what TC's position was in relation to pilots who have a prescription for medical marijuana. His response was "We expect pilots in the cockpit to be clear headed." In a nutshell, that is the only legal position TC could ever sustain. A policy which was directed at controlling a legal lifestyle enjoyed by all other Canadians at the possible cost of career termination would be tossed fast and far by the courts.

I respectfully disagree with your investor enthusiasm about multi billion dollar legal markets. As the system is currently structured, it is transparently a system where a few connected Liberal party insiders are out to fleece investors on a bullshit prospectus that ignores these foundation facts about that market:

• It is long established over many decades, with producers, distributors, and consumers very familiar with the system
  As Nazi Germany wasn't defeated by the US, but rather Russia, so it is that prohibition was not defeated by Justin Trudeau and marijuana parties, and letters to the editor. It was defeated by those who broke the laws on production, distribution and consumption.
  In an absurd error in the present proposal, these people are left out of the new system, while leaving their networks and highly advanced knowledge intact.
  They are going to be drinking the milkshake of anyone with a stock market listing.

I agree with your contention that a significant percentage of pilots use marijuana in varying degrees of frequency.

[annonyous123]

I've never been a regular smoker, something about not knowing who has dealt with the substance prior to me has always made me a little paranoid. I'd be lying if I said haven't had the odd puff in my younger years though with friends, and I have to say......the difference in how one feels the next morning after smoking 4-5 puffs of a joint and having a complete riot of a laugh vs drinking 10-12 beers is astounding......Im a regular drinker, and no matter what, I always have a tight head the next day. With Marijuana I wake up feeling like I've never slept better and ready to roll. I am way more alert the next day of Smoking vs Drinking.

I look forward to the day I can pick up a pack of joints at Shoppers Drug mart ,and watch a hilarious movie with my wife......it'll be just like high school all over again.

[Blueontop]

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?

Robert Piche..

[C.W.E.]

I hope it becomes like Alcohol, smoke em if you got em while on days off. I laugh how some of these old skips are dead set against it, yet are totally fine with drinking 3-4 scotch every night...

Ahh...but the US customs and immigration have a different opinion.

[AirFrame]

Just curious, can we agree that in the current aviation industry in Canada, alcohol is a bigger risk to flight safety than marijuana? I'm not talking about if it gets legalized and everyone magically starts smoking it. Currently, what is statistically more likely to be causing impairment on the flight deck? I've seen lots of hungover pilots but I'll admit I have no idea if I've flown with someone impaired by marijuana because I don't know what that would look like.

I submit that this is mostly because alcohol is legal, and socially acceptable. Marijuana is both illegal and socially stigmatized, and getting caught with it on the flight deck I expect would have serious repercussions... Picking up a bottle at the duty-free after a layover, not so much.

[No Smoke, No Fire]

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

My point exactly.

[Mr. North]

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

My point exactly.

Short on time to find specifics but a quick google search proves that Transport Canada does indeed have a zero tolerance policy for cannabis.

It was strongly reinforced that TC will continue to have a zero tolerance
policy for cannabis, regardless of whether it becomes legal, as cannabis use is not consistent with being medically fit to fly.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca ... _2017E.pdf

Transport Canada is reminding pilots that while the rest of the country may be changing its attitude toward marijuana, it hasn’t relaxed its stance. On July 1, 2018, possession of small amounts of pot and its recreational use will be legal in Canada. Provinces are developing intoxication detection and enforcement standards for drivers caught impaired behind the wheel. TC officials told delegates to the Air Transport Association of Canada meeting last week that any amount of THC, the psychoactive chemical in cannabis, found in a pilot’s bloodstream will result in immediate suspension of flight privileges and that will last until the THC is flushed from his or her system.

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/T ... 907-1.html

[C.W.E.]

The real danger of a pilot using any drug for personal pleasure regardless if said drug is legal or illegal is the insidious reliance on the drug that leads to addiction.

I can not speak to cannabis but I sure can to alcohol.

My addiction was well established before I became aware of it and as the realisation of my dependency on it became more evident I had a decision to make, keep drinking and risk ending my career and shortening my lifespan or quit completely and continue flying and enhance my life span.

So I made the decision to quit and it was not easy, first I tried AA and it only worked for about two years on two occasions.

In the end I had to seek medical help to end my addiction and fortunately it worked and I was able to fly until I decided to retire because I wanted to, not because I had to.

Addiction is a real bitch and the percentage of people who manage to recover is not all that impressive.

[valleyboy]

It really does not matter what is legal and what is not. Companies can adopt a zero tolerance if they choose. Most have gone to 12 hours for the consumption of alcohol and certainly have the right to demand no drinking at all on company time (meaning anytime except a GDO or holidays) With the 12 hour rule they have practically removed drinking at any time on company assignment. You can disregard, but as I go on to say, you job is on the line since you are in violation of your com.

In this day of "cover your ass" you can go blindly on and chances are you would never get caught smoking up (or however you ingest mary jane) but if the shit hits the fan and either you are tested or there is a post-mortem all you worked for goes out the window or your family suffers for your indiscretions. I'm no prude but just sayin, think before you have that joint or that drink, especially on layovers. How many times have we seen someone ruin their career of a brain fart -- too many I think --

[Tanker299]

There gonna have a real hard time telling pilots especially private pilots and ultralight pilots they can't do this. They won't be able to segment us off either as lots of private pilots also have a bare bones cpl as a tax write off. I know we want to think we are the smartest people in the world but if your cool with the cops, who make split second stressed decisions that have life and death consequences doing it? How about the judge who is now making an as you put it an impaired decision. Would that not null and void every one of their rulings? Doctors and nurses or even firefighters? How about any licenced firearm owner? How long until they can handle a gun? Who's ever shown up in camp and not had that Tabbaco or Coffee for the bush pilot and cowboys? Have you seen how impaired they are? Or that pilot who smokes 2 packs a day after 5-10 hours in the cockpit no smoke... anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit. Lots of stimulants that can f u up are completely legal.
They have had 100 years to figure this out and a lot of you sound like the women's temperance league of the 20s. We all know long term alcohol use causes a host of medical issues and even loss of surface area in your brain. Plus the lack of restful sleep after you have a few... TC has an uphill battle and they will lose.

[valleyboy]

Nothing has really changed, I remember telling a group of pilots back in the late 70's to cool it and get rid of their grow op in the basement. Like I said nothing really happens until the shit hits the fan and then you find yourself kicking stones because your brain went into neutral and you didn't have the sense to control your urges.

[annonyous123]

They just need a way to test to show impaired or not impaired like alcohol.....then its gonna be a free for all, IMO.
Both alcohol and Marijuana can be detected in your system for up to 3 weeks.

Who ever comes up with it first is rich!!

[cncpc]

There gonna have a real hard time telling pilots especially private pilots and ultralight pilots they can't do this. They won't be able to segment us off either as lots of private pilots also have a bare bones cpl as a tax write off. I know we want to think we are the smartest people in the world but if your cool with the cops, who make split second stressed decisions that have life and death consequences doing it? How about the judge who is now making an as you put it an impaired decision. Would that not null and void every one of their rulings? Doctors and nurses or even firefighters? How about any licenced firearm owner? How long until they can handle a gun? Who's ever shown up in camp and not had that Tabbaco or Coffee for the bush pilot and cowboys? Have you seen how impaired they are? Or that pilot who smokes 2 packs a day after 5-10 hours in the cockpit no smoke... anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit. Lots of stimulants that can f u up are completely legal.
They have had 100 years to figure this out and a lot of you sound like the women's temperance league of the 20s. We all know long term alcohol use causes a host of medical issues and even loss of surface area in your brain. Plus the lack of restful sleep after you have a few... TC has an uphill battle and they will lose.

I hear you, but it is jumping the gun to say that there is going to be some "battle" with TC. I think that response from the RAMO I quoted above, plus the Criminal Code provisions against being impaired in control of an airplane, and the Regs prohibiting it as well, cover all the bases as it is. A clear head in the cockpit. I doubt there is a single poster on this forum who disputes that. I'd be fairly sure that Transport knows that.

[C.W.E.]

Here is part of one companies add in the employment forum.

As this is a Safety Sensitive Position, selected candidate(s) must test negative for controlled substances and alcohol prior to employment.

[Heliian]

Pre employment testing is not new, they've done it up in the patch for years. I heard the other day that pot use had dropped but the use of other drugs that metabolize faster has increased.

There has been contentious debate about this for decades, people still don't want to surrender their rights.

[C-GGGQ]

Truckers are pre emplyment and random call up. Yes it's only for entering the US but how many airline pilots here fly only Canada routes?

[digits_]

anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit.

Nope. Never tried it, don't have the urge.

And that's one of the problems: weed, alcohol, tobacco are way too often viewed through rose colored "i am cool" glasses, often by people who can't resist the urge. If you can't resist the urge, but you try to succesfully portray the image that "everyone at least tried it once", it makes you look less weak and feel less guilty. It is also very easy to find likeminded people to reinforce the believe that everyone tried it.

I can honestly say I know more people that did NOT try weed or cigarettes, than people who DID try it. Some posts make it sound like whole Canada is secretly smoking and drinking in their basements. I'd be surprised...

[confusedalot]

wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes.

lots of types like that who have plunged the world into debilitating misery.

no thanks, will keep my slight human foibles and will continue to do good things, instead of hammering persons to death.

didn't use pot because the jeopardy to a medical far outweighed the natural human curiosity to see what it is all about. I do not however think that a pot user is some sort of freak of nature.

smoked, and still smoke cigarettes though, but I am an old timer where smoking tobacco was not viewed as some kind of psychosocial crazy and psychotic habit. lots of high profile people smoked. some high profile types did not, some of them being rather infamous. for their rather negative impact on society. There is no correlation to be made.

[digits_]

wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes.

Not at all, merely contesting the fact that everyone has tried it.

didn't use pot because the jeopardy to a medical far outweighed the natural human curiosity to see what it is all about. I do not however think that a pot user is some sort of freak of nature.

Should I reply "wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes." to this statement as well then?