Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

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JasonE
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Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#1 Post by JasonE » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:06 pm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/transpo ... afely.html

"Starting June 28, 2018, we put a safety measure in place to protect Canadians from laser attacks on aircraft."

"You cannot possess a hand-held laser over 1 mW outside of a private dwelling within:

municipalities within the greater Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver regions
a 10-kilometre radius of an airport and certified heliports"

Think it will do any good?

Here's my laser strike from 2016:

Image
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#2 Post by Rockie » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm

JasonE wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:06 pm
Think it will do any good?
If they make a very public example of someone perhaps, but I doubt it. The kind of person who does this either lacks the intelligence to think their actions through to the potential consequences, or doesn’t care about the consequences.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#3 Post by digits_ » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:29 pm

Rockie wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm
JasonE wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:06 pm
Think it will do any good?
If they make a very public example of someone perhaps, but I doubt it. The kind of person who does this either lacks the intelligence to think their actions through to the potential consequences, or doesn’t care about the consequences.
Not necessarily. It's important to educate the people, by showing what that little tiny dot does. As a kid/teenager, before I got into aviation, if I had such a laser (which I didn't), I might have tried to point it at an airplane, because:
1) I had no idea I would actually be able to hit it
2) I had no idea the beam would spread out that much
3) I had no idea it would interfere with the pilots at all


Then I studied engineering, including some courses on lasers and I still had no idea it would interfere with airplanes that much in this fashion. They are sending laser/lightbeams all around the globe for our internet, so how would a laser beam diverge so much over a distance of a few thousand feet?

It wasn't until I saw the pictures taken from the flight deck of laser strikes, that I could do a bit more detailed research and was convinced that it is indeed a potentially deadly instrument.

The untrained laser operator could be wondering that we are using 60W light sources at every home, so how could a 1 mW light source be so damaging?

Fines might deter people a little bit, but education would help the most. I am convinced we do not have 400 people a year intentionally trying to bring down an airliner.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#4 Post by digits_ » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:11 pm

JasonE wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:06 pm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/transpo ... afely.html

"Starting June 28, 2018, we put a safety measure in place to protect Canadians from laser attacks on aircraft."

"You cannot possess a hand-held laser over 1 mW outside of a private dwelling within:

municipalities within the greater Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver regions
a 10-kilometre radius of an airport and certified heliports"
I'm curious what gives Transport the right to impose fines for lasers? Shouldn't there be some kind of regulation/law that gives them the authority to enforce this?

It's also a bit awkwardly worded:
You cannot possess a hand-held laser over 1 mW outside of a private dwelling within:

municipalities within the greater Montréal, Toronto or Vancouver regions
a 10-kilometre radius of an airport and certified heliports

You may possess a hand-held laser anywhere in Canada for any of the following reasons:

The laser has 1 mW of power or less
You are in possession of the laser for a legitimate purpose, such as for work, school or educational purposes
Learn more about enforcement and penalties
You are a member of an astronomy society and are in possession of the laser for that purpose
Learn more about lasers for astronomy and laser light shows
I'm in Toronto in my backyard doing an experiment for school. Is this legal?
If you cannot possess a hand-held laser over 1 mW outside of a private dwelling, then that implies you can only possess it inside some private dwellings. So you can't possess it in a factory.
But then the second part says you can possess it for work. Ok, so you can only possess it at home for work, but not at work itself? Weird.

Does the second rule trump the first one? It's quite important, yet it isn't defined anywhere.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#5 Post by Rockie » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:31 am

Would you shine a powerful flashlight in the eyes of a truck driver on the highway digits_? I think even as a kid you could reason out that it might blind the driver, and that a laser would be much worse.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#6 Post by digits_ » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:29 am

Rockie wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:31 am
Would you shine a powerful flashlight in the eyes of a truck driver on the highway digits_? I think even as a kid you could reason out that it might blind the driver, and that a laser would be much worse.
No I wouldn't, however high beams shine in my eyes every night I drive on the highway because people don't always turn them off when passing cars. As a kid I would probably have thought it would be impossible for me to hit the driver's eyes with such a tiny dot, vs a flashlight which has very wide beam.

However, are there any reports of truck drivers being blinded by lasers? None that I could find, yet I am sure that people have tried hitting trucks with lasers. One could -incorrectly- argue that if trucks aren't affected by lasers, then why would a plane, which is moving 4 times as fast, 10 times as far away?

The key to this problem is education.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#7 Post by confusedalot » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:49 am

So, all of the schoolteachers and salesman who own a laser pointer over 1mw in power to facilitate powerpoint presentations and the like, and just so happen to live in any of the three cities listed, who transport the pointer in their pocket from home to the workplace, and who have not read the material on the TC website, are guilty of a federal offense.

That's a whole lot of guilty people. Ignorance of the law in canada is not an excuse for commission of a guilty act.

Makes perfect sense.

Couldn't find 1mw pointers on the Staples website, did find some online suppliers though.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#8 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:00 am

Must be Trumps fault!

Everything else is.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#9 Post by JasonE » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:41 am

For me when the laser hit the windscreen it scattered light everywhere was disorienting at first. I had to look down and fly instruments as the idiot tracked me across the city. He did it a second time much closer on my way back, and continued until I circled his property with my landing light on so he knew I could tell exactly where he was.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#10 Post by Blueontop » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:14 pm

JasonE wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:41 am
For me when the laser hit the windscreen it scattered light everywhere was disorienting at first. I had to look down and fly instruments as the idiot tracked me across the city. He did it a second time much closer on my way back, and continued until I circled his property with my landing light on so he knew I could tell exactly where he was.
Did you report his address to then police? What was the outcome?
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#11 Post by JasonE » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:12 pm

It was reported to FSS in the air, and they forwarded it to local police. Zero outcome. The police didn't seem interested despite the fact I could identify exactly what building it came from with video.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#12 Post by Taco Joe » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:47 pm

JasonE wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:12 pm
It was reported to FSS in the air, and they forwarded it to local police. Zero outcome. The police didn't seem interested despite the fact I could identify exactly what building it came from with video.
That's very interesting and disheartening to hear. When and where was this? I had one about two years ago while on one of the STARs into YYZ. I reported it to ATC and when we got into the FBO, the police were there waiting for us. They spent a lot of time with us trying to figure out where it came from and we had tons of follow-up between TC, the police and my company. I was surprised with the amount of attention it got.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#13 Post by Rockie » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:32 pm

I was hit by an extremely powerful blue laser in YYZ one night descending through 6500 feet. This idiot successfully tracked us for about 15 seconds. It left me wondering what exactly this guy was trying to achieve if not blind us. If that wasn’t it then he lacked the brain horsepower to figure out on his own that shining a high power laser at someone might damage their eyesight.

There are no doubt people in this world that stupid, but I submit that stating the obvious to these people won’t on its own penetrate the thick layer of stupid enough to make them stop without a strong additional disincentive to emphasize the point. Even then.....
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#14 Post by B208 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 am

Rockie wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:32 pm
If that wasn’t it then he lacked the brain horsepower to figure out on his own that shining a high power laser at someone might damage their eyesight
This is not intuitively obvious to most people. People without a science background don’t realize what a laser can do. Education is the key.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#15 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:22 am

Rockie wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm
If they make a very public example of someone perhaps,
Fine.

This is the same person who says we mustn't make a public example of highly trained pilots who are willfully and knowingly negligent with people's lives, as opposed to some idiot who probably hasn't a clue how dangerous shining a laser is.

Interesting.

As an example,

This guy got an 8 month sentence and lost his pilots license.
For one year only!
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e34560784/

Shining a laser can mean 5 years in prison and $100,000 fine.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4029548/lase ... ada-plane/

That disparity make sense?

Why not a lifetime ban. Both pilots license and drivers license.

The defense called for a 3 month sentence, and whined that the pilot had been publically shamed. I feel so sorry for that person.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#16 Post by Rockie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:30 am

B208 wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 am
[quote=Rockie post_id=<a href="tel:1044605">1044605</a> time=<a href="tel:1530401549">1530401549</a> user_id=5632]
If that wasn’t it then he lacked the brain horsepower to figure out on his own that shining a high power laser at someone might damage their eyesight
This is not intuitively obvious to most people. People without a science background don’t realize what a laser can do. Education is the key.
[/quote]

It doesn’t take a science background to know what a bright light is. It doesn’t take a science background to know that a laser is highly focused light. If they were really that dense they’d shine it in their own eyes...repeatedly. Maybe they do.

Why do you think they aim it at an aircraft? Signalling for help perhaps?
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#17 Post by Rockie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:35 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:22 am
Rockie wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 pm
If they make a very public example of someone perhaps,
Fine.

This is the same person who says we mustn't make a public example of highly trained pilots who are willfully and knowingly negligent with people's lives, as opposed to some idiot who probably hasn't a clue how dangerous shining a laser is.

Interesting.
Where we differ there is the “willfully and knowingly negligent” part. Also I don’t need to know laser guy’s name, just let it be very publicly known that John Doe was given the maximum penalty, and you will too if we catch you doing the same thing.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#18 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:41 am

Rockie,


Let's not go there. Erasing a CVR, (for example in SFO) is complete proof of knowing and willingly negligent. It's erasing evidence and should be treated extremely harshly.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#19 Post by Rockie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:46 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:41 am
Rockie,


Let's not go there. Erasing a CVR is complete proof of knowing and willingly negligent. It's erasing evidence and should be treated extremely harshly.
Erasing a CVR is complete proof of erasing a CVR, nothing else. What are you talking about anyway?
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#20 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:50 am

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:46 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:41 am
Rockie,


Let's not go there. Erasing a CVR is complete proof of knowing and willingly negligent. It's erasing evidence and should be treated extremely harshly.
Erasing a CVR is complete proof of erasing a CVR, nothing else. What are you talking about anyway?
SIR,

You can't expound on the highly trained professionalism of airline pilots constantly, then claim ignorance when it suits you.

A trained professional should be held to a much higher standard, and is in other industries.
Securities fraud can mean a lifetime ban.
Legal misconduct can mean being being disbarred.

Drinking a 26er and then sitting in the captains chair. One year suspension. What a joke.

Maybe -- if erasing a CVR was a considered a criminal offense, the message would be sent it's unacceptable. Why is this a problem?

Instead of going after (total idiots, who should be prosecuted) shining lasers, why don't you shine a light in your own backyard Rockie, instead of the mindless defending?

Publicly?

Guess THAT would be too uncomfortable. (Snort)
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#21 Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:54 am

Knowingly negligent..........

There’s a new one.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#22 Post by Rockie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:06 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:50 am
Maybe -- if erasing a CVR was a considered a criminal offense, the message would be sent it's unacceptable. Why is this a problem?
I am unaware of an incident where a CVR was erased afterwards. Could you provide an example?
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#23 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:09 am

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:06 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:50 am
Maybe -- if erasing a CVR was a considered a criminal offense, the message would be sent it's unacceptable. Why is this a problem?
I am unaware of an incident where a CVR was erased afterwards. Could you provide an example?
Not pulling the CB after the SFO flight allows overwriting, which erases the relevant data.

And I don't believe for a second that was not a deliberate decision from a highly trained crew.

Stop with the stupid semantic arguments.

The fact of the matter is you blindly defend any flight crew no matter the transgression, yet beat the drum for jail time.....for someone shining a laser.

You preach "re-education" for highly trained flight crews with loads of education already, regardless of the stupidity -- willful or not.


You instead call for 5 years jail time for some (likely drunken) idiot loser who hasn't a clue what shining a laser does.

It's blind home gaming. Not even remotely rational.

I find the hypocrisy amusing. You've lost this debate. Again.
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#24 Post by Rockie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:16 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:09 am
Rockie wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:06 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:50 am
Maybe -- if erasing a CVR was a considered a criminal offense, the message would be sent it's unacceptable. Why is this a problem?
I am unaware of an incident where a CVR was erased afterwards. Could you provide an example?
Not pulling the CB after the SFO flight allows overwriting, which erases the relevant data.

And I don't believe for a second that was not a deliberate decision from a highly trained crew.

Stop with the stupid semantic arguments.
It's not semantics, there is a considerable difference in both spirit and definition between overwriting and deliberately erasing. You would do well to learn that before throwing those kinds of accusations around Rookie. You might also look at CAR 605.34(2).
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Re: Ban of Handheld Lasers within 10k of airports

#25 Post by digits_ » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:19 am

Rockie wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:30 am


It doesn’t take a science background to know what a bright light is. It doesn’t take a science background to know that a laser is highly focused light. If they were really that dense they’d shine it in their own eyes...repeatedly. Maybe they do.

Why do you think they aim it at an aircraft? Signalling for help perhaps?
You are reinforcing the misconception right here. At 7000 ft most lasers are not highly focused anymore, that is the point (pun intended). The beam is wide enough to engulf the windshield. If it truly stayed a small 2 mm diameter beam, you could shine at airplanes all day and nobody would notice.

Try hitting a 6x6 post with one of those laser distance measuring things from 40ft, it is really hard to do. So how would the average person expect to hit a fast moving object at 6000 ft?

Maybe they see it as a challenge to hit a plane expecting the pilot to see a small floating dot and going beserk like a cat does. No idea. I refuse to believe those 400 people in toronto tried to bring down the plane or harm anyone on board. Maybe one lunatic might be trying to do so, not everyone.

Education is key.
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