Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Message
Author
User avatar
single_swine_herder
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 625
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#1 Post by single_swine_herder » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:57 am

Here's the link to Winnipeg CTV News.

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1434256

SSH
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1481
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#2 Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:16 am

Unless you have inside info, it looks like there is "just" an RFP out, doesn't mean it will be awarded. Although they are moving one step closer to privatization.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Hangry
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#3 Post by Hangry » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:58 am

Good. If private enterprise can do it than the feeding at the trough should end. Before all you government types get all upset don’t forget that many of us have seen how “efficient” you are with those tax payer dollars. :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Zaibatsu
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#4 Post by Zaibatsu » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:03 am

Unfortunately, it never works that way. Without competition, private companies are solely motivated by profit to executives and shareholders.

We saw that in Alberta in the 90s under King Ralph. Companies like Telus got Alberta Government Telephones for a song and then promptly raised rates and lowered services in a de facto monopoly.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#5 Post by bobcaygeon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:08 pm

You are very forgetful. I remember paying +1.00/minute for long distance within the province back then? What's that now with inflation $1.50???

My phone bill is less now than it was then and I have way more capabilities now with my phone.

Privatization may not be the answer for the entire service but if the threat of it makes people in the public service a little more aware then so be it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#6 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:18 pm

Unfortunately, it never works that way. Without competition, private companies are solely motivated by profit to executives and shareholders.
There is no competition in private companies but if everything is run by Government there will be competition?

But if we let Government run everything we will be better served because there is no profit motive?

Have I got that correct?
---------- ADS -----------
  

neil_ame
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:13 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#7 Post by neil_ame » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:55 pm

Does anyone know where they do their heavy maintenance on the CL415 water bombers?
---------- ADS -----------
  

planett
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Great Plains

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#8 Post by planett » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:22 am

Heavy maintenance in house.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#9 Post by mmm..bacon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:51 am

I can’t see the sense in it..planes cost the same for fuel and mx; pilots get paid on par with the private sector; the only difference is that you now have to tack on an extra 5, 7, 10% for profit...
---------- ADS -----------
  

spongebob
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:21 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#10 Post by spongebob » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:01 am

Conservative governments don't like taking opportunities away from corporate businesses.

Also, research where the former conservative premier of Manitoba from 1988-1999 is now. Coincidence?
---------- ADS -----------
  

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#11 Post by bobcaygeon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:44 am

mmm..bacon wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:51 am
I can’t see the sense in it..planes cost the same for fuel and mx; pilots get paid on par with the private sector; the only difference is that you now have to tack on an extra 5, 7, 10% for profit...
The RCAF doesn't think so. There's a reason they awarded heavy mtc and support for the new SAR aircraft to PAL Aerospace. Just like they did for the Gonzo fleet. It used to be internal but it was painfully slow and almost killed that program. Why? Because they rarely did heavy checks because of low aircraft utilizations. Not so with private industry that sees the type consistently and know's where to look for typical problems for that type. A Dash 8 is a Dash 8 right? Not sure if it's cheaper but it's definitely much faster for heavy mtc. Same with the older Hercs.

You can get the same level of mtc from private industry generally with a quicker turnaround time because they often have more staff available that move from project to project.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#12 Post by mmm..bacon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:43 pm

So who, exactly, in the private sector has experience doing heavy mx on CL2/415? Some of the government AMEs have 30 years working on that type - it’s literally all they’ve done for their career. Do you really want to hive off all of that work to some mythical, unnamed AMO that will somehow be cheaper, yet still expect the same quality? Further, if you’re looking to shave costs to generate profit, mx isn’t the place to do it....

Also, time for heavy mx isn’t really a factor right now - it’s done in the winter where there aren’t too many fires to put out, so the planes are hangared/stored, and available. Given my above premise that fuel, mx and wages are roughly the same, the one of the few ways to generate extra revenue for leasing costs and profit is to rent the planes out when they’re not needed in Manitoba (during the off season) which will pretty much guarantee problems and delays in heavy mx, because there’s less time to do it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

medi-whacked
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#13 Post by medi-whacked » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:16 pm

spongebob wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:01 am
Conservative governments don't like taking opportunities away from corporate businesses.

Also, research where the former conservative premier of Manitoba from 1988-1999 is now. Coincidence?
So where is Gary Filmon now?
And what do you mean by “coincidence”?
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#14 Post by fish4life » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:41 pm

medi-whacked wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:16 pm
spongebob wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:01 am
Conservative governments don't like taking opportunities away from corporate businesses.

Also, research where the former conservative premier of Manitoba from 1988-1999 is now. Coincidence?
So where is Gary Filmon now?
And what do you mean by “coincidence”?
I believe he is on the board of directors for EIC which owns Perimeter, Calm Air, etc
---------- ADS -----------
  

Capt. Underpants
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#15 Post by Capt. Underpants » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:54 pm

mmm..bacon wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:43 pm
So who, exactly, in the private sector has experience doing heavy mx on CL2/415? Some of the government AMEs have 30 years working on that type - it’s literally all they’ve done for their career. Do you really want to hive off all of that work to some mythical, unnamed AMO that will somehow be cheaper, yet still expect the same quality? Further, if you’re looking to shave costs to generate profit, mx isn’t the place to do it....

Also, time for heavy mx isn’t really a factor right now - it’s done in the winter where there aren’t too many fires to put out, so the planes are hangared/stored, and available. Given my above premise that fuel, mx and wages are roughly the same, the one of the few ways to generate extra revenue for leasing costs and profit is to rent the planes out when they’re not needed in Manitoba (during the off season) which will pretty much guarantee problems and delays in heavy mx, because there’s less time to do it.
I believe Alberta privatized their 215 fleet several years ago. Have there been problems with their maintenance or reliability since then?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#16 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:08 pm

The government AMEs probably go work for the private organization that takes over the maintenance. No?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#17 Post by mmm..bacon » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:12 am

^ & ^ ^ Yes, but that then goes back to my original contention that I can’t see how it’s cheaper, as the mx costs are the same, and you still have to tack on a profit margin...
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#18 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:32 am

Usually less bureaucracy. Manager's manager gets laid off. Do they really need a 415 chief pilot and a bird dog chief pilot? (Hypothetical exampmes). The pressure to make a profit is what drives costs down. Government organizations aren't trying to make a profit, therefore don't care about costs as much.

If the system is made 10% more cost efficient, 5% profit margin, 5% lower cost to tax payers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

letsfly
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:01 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#19 Post by letsfly » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:18 pm

Where is Filmon now?

Well, Chairman of the board for EIC, Which owns
CALMAIR
PERIMETER
KEEWATIN
CUSTOM HELICOPTER
PAL East Coast
WASAYA (SOON)
and in the back pocket of the Conservative Government. SO, who would you think has the upper hand in taking over 100% of Manitoba Government Air Service. Correct!!!!!!!
Not a very competitive method of dispersing assets!
---------- ADS -----------
  

planett
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Great Plains

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#20 Post by planett » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Privatization is rarely about costs, although the idea is sold to the public more easily if they believe that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TT1900
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 8:19 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#21 Post by TT1900 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:07 pm

mmm..bacon wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:12 am
^ & ^ ^ Yes, but that then goes back to my original contention that I can’t see how it’s cheaper, as the mx costs are the same, and you still have to tack on a profit margin...
No defined benefit pension, no medical/dental carryover coverage during pension years, no government top up while on EI supported programs. While the salary may be better private sector on government contract, the benefits certainly are not. In the long run personnel costs normally outweigh equipment costs. Contacting removes the long term personnel cost from the government ledger.

I’m a federal employee so it may not be 100% apples to apples, but if the provincial side mirrors federal personnel costs are by far the biggest cost.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#22 Post by bobcaygeon » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:16 am

The good thing for the AME's is that is a seller's market so they will do just fine. Looking at the RFP it's by no means a guaranteed award to EIC for any of the parts of it. There are some very big players in the water bombing business with decades of experience.
The old AC hangar always has room in it so there is definitely room for another player in YWG.
---------- ADS -----------
  

medi-whacked
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#23 Post by medi-whacked » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:16 am
The good thing for the AME's is that is a seller's market so they will do just fine. Looking at the RFP it's by no means a guaranteed award to EIC for any of the parts of it. There are some very big players in the water bombing business with decades of experience.
The old AC hangar always has room in it so there is definitely room for another player in YWG.
Exactly what I was thinking. Buffalo, Conair and Airspray all have a strong background in the fire suppression world. All have operated the Canadair products.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Shiraz
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#24 Post by Shiraz » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:00 pm

How does one see what the RFP requires? Is it available for public viewing?
---------- ADS -----------
  

dstechnical
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:10 pm

Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#25 Post by dstechnical » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:26 pm

mmm..bacon wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:51 am
I can’t see the sense in it..planes cost the same for fuel and mx; pilots get paid on par with the private sector; the only difference is that you now have to tack on an extra 5, 7, 10% for profit...
I don't know about Manitoba, but in ontario a bag of money could be saved by privatizing. Especially the helicopter division.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”