Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

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N181CS
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#26 Post by N181CS » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:57 am

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The Hammer
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#27 Post by The Hammer » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:16 am

MNR in Ontario is already contracting out firefighting. Saskatchewan and Buffalo Joe have bombers in NW Ontario right now and they aren't flying.

If a private company can use the bombers elsewhere in the winter and have the contracted resources available in the summer as per their contract with the government then so be it.


The OPP is essentially a contracted service. Ontario decided that having the OPP throughout the province was cheaper than paying the RCMP to do it like they do in almost all of the other provinces & territories.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#28 Post by CLguy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:28 pm

Out of province bombers in Ontario has nothing to do with privatization. They are here as part of the MARS (Mutal Aid Resource Sharing) Agreement which is in effect country wide. The provinces share resources as needed in busy fire flaps regardless of who is operating them. Alberta, Manitoba and Quebec have helped as well. Mexico and the US also have sent help.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#29 Post by Tailwheelup » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:31 pm

Above Gary Filmon, there is
Mike Pyle is the CEO of EIC
who the press releases claim is famous for "creative acquisitions".

That's another name for toxic employment conditions where
employees get told in no uncertain terms what the bottom line requires.

What really stinks and has a very loud warning bell is that a
Progressive Conservative Gary Filmon is now the key person
putting in the bid for well, EIC.

The RFP has a load of conditions that are not published.
One of them is how well the organization has done under TC audits over the last few years.
That would technically knock out or should knock out Perimeter but whats to stop
EIC using another name that does not have that audit problem in creating an application
that on the surface appears to score all the points required by the RFP?

The government has pushed this through via the back door in a manner that stinks of priority.

After "creative acquisitions" its going to be creative operations.

Just imagine calling ops on call and getting Gary Filmon or Mike Pyle
telling you about how "important" that particular flight is.

The government is engaging in delusional reasoning. The cost of pilots, aircraft, fuel does not change with operator
unless one operator is not playing by the rules.

What they are demanding is that who ever gets the contract, must not follow the rules in order to deliver
the expected "cost savings".

The savings that can be obtained are obvious, its the dispatch efficiencies that cost the government and while
the government correctly states that it is not utilized to expected efficiencies, that responsibility
is entirely that of the government.

Even with privatization, the government will still be screwing up its own ultimate control of dispatch etc
that will lead to even more cost ineffectiveness let alone politicians dictating
their delusional ideas of cost savings which will create new threats to aviation safety.

Its what you call irresponsible partisan political decision making that could well be reversed by
a change in government. If the government genuinely wanted to deliver better services at low cost to
the tax payer, there were many ways to deliver that in a non partisan approach with consensus from
all the political interests.

Hopefully someone with some inside information will inform as as to what is really going on
at EIC and the back rooms of the progressive conservative account managers.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#30 Post by PT6A » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:21 am

From what I've found regarding the RFP online...

"Proponent can propose to deliver on one or more of the following Service:

Wildfire Suppression: Operate four (4) CL-415 and (2) CL-215 under leases from Manitoba and provide three Bird-dog Aircraft to support the air tanker mission on behalf Sustainable Development. In addition to this primary work Proponents may include off-season work opportunities in other jurisdictions.

Air Ambulance: Provide consolidated air medical transport on a 24 hour 365 day basis throughout the Province of Manitoba and to surrounding jurisdictions with which Manitoba has entered into agreements to provide services on behalf of Manitoba Health.

General Transport – Northern and Eastern Judicial District: Provide air transportation to support Norther and Eastern Judicial District which have flights originating from Winnipeg, Thompson and The Pas including transport for court parties, prisoner parties and new arrest flights on behalf of Manitoba Justice and the Judiciary. Development of a plan to implement the decided upon options and alternatives and implementation of that plan."

Does anyone have any insight into this? The way that this is worded it seems that there will only be one medical transport and one general transport company left in Manitoba once this RFP is completed.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#31 Post by North Shore » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:01 am

The Air Service has three ‘divisions’: tankers, ambulance, and general transport. Currently, they are all operated under the same umbrella of the Air Service. The Government, with its rfp, is looking for organizations to take the operations of some, or all, of those divisions off the hands of the Air Service, providing that doing so will be financially advantageous to the Government.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#32 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:01 am

PT6A wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:21 am
From what I've found regarding the RFP online...

"Proponent can propose to deliver on one or more of the following Service:

Wildfire Suppression: Operate four (4) CL-415 and (2) CL-215 under leases from Manitoba and provide three Bird-dog Aircraft to support the air tanker mission on behalf Sustainable Development. In addition to this primary work Proponents may include off-season work opportunities in other jurisdictions.

Air Ambulance: Provide consolidated air medical transport on a 24 hour 365 day basis throughout the Province of Manitoba and to surrounding jurisdictions with which Manitoba has entered into agreements to provide services on behalf of Manitoba Health.

General Transport – Northern and Eastern Judicial District: Provide air transportation to support Norther and Eastern Judicial District which have flights originating from Winnipeg, Thompson and The Pas including transport for court parties, prisoner parties and new arrest flights on behalf of Manitoba Justice and the Judiciary. Development of a plan to implement the decided upon options and alternatives and implementation of that plan."

Does anyone have any insight into this? The way that this is worded it seems that there will only be one medical transport and one general transport company left in Manitoba once this RFP is completed.
Regarding all of the above, in my opinion nothing will change for current operators who provide those services. The only air ambulance service currently provided by the province is what was always called “life flight” and according to the reports the services above are idle 60% of the time.
There will be a significant cost savings to have this privatized, first of all there’s the savings from a new start up vs long term government employees. I believe the province still has a DB pension and there’s always redundancy in positions that will be eliminated. The overhead for a fleet that’s idle 60% of the time is a huge part.
Keewatin will end up with the “life flight” division, as for the fire fighting, anyone’s guess since that would be a complete start up. Anyone with a Navajo can support the general transport division, in fact many court party trips were typically chartered out as it was already.
I do feel for the workers, I don’t believe anyone there was using it as a stepping stone, mostly career pilots. Good luck
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#33 Post by PT6A » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:18 am

Rumour at SkyNorth is that the new RFP has performance requirements that would eliminate the King Air 90 and MU2 from available service. Court flying has not been done in Navajos for a few years.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#34 Post by mbav8r » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:26 am

PT6A wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:18 am
Rumour at SkyNorth is that the new RFP has performance requirements that would eliminate the King Air 90 and MU2 from available service. Court flying has not been done in Navajos for a few years.
I have to admit it’s been years since I have been involved in the Manitoba medevacs and court party system and had no reason to believe it had changed.
What does meet the requirements?
I imagine Sky North will acquire whatever it is they need, given and again my info may be dated, they have all their eggs in that basket.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#35 Post by nothingbeatsflying » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:51 am

Even with privatization, the government will still be screwing up its own ultimate control of dispatch etc
that will lead to even more cost ineffectiveness let alone politicians dictating
their delusional ideas of cost savings which will create new threats to aviation safety.

...

Even with privatization, the government will still be screwing up its own ultimate control of dispatch etc
that will lead to even more cost ineffectiveness let alone politicians dictating
their delusional ideas of cost savings which will create new threats to aviation safety.
Not true. I've heard of well-founded rumors that the government is in the process of making enormous changes to the dispatching process for air ambulance which is going to save the gov't big $$$.
The government is engaging in delusional reasoning. The cost of pilots, aircraft, fuel does not change with operator unless one operator is not playing by the rules.
This is not true. Cost of gov't unionized employees is far higher than the private sector. Furthermore, large operators (like Babcock) have large pools of resources to draw from that enables a more competitive bid. They can use tooling, engineers, hangars, administrative employees across multiple sectors and contracts increasing the efficiency of all the HR/asset dollars spent.
Rumour at SkyNorth is that the new RFP has performance requirements that would eliminate the King Air 90 and MU2 from available service. Court flying has not been done in Navajos for a few years.
This is true. The performance requirements are steep and additional points are handed out for modern aircraft with advanced avionics. The RFP actually gets quite specific about this. Trust me, operators bidding with old junkers will be ignored. Look at the job postings Babcock has put out. IIRC, they're looking for time on Beech 200, Twin Otters, and Citation 560 XLS. My gut tells me is that EIC is scrambling on this one, and that this RFP is Van Guard's to lose.

In summary, there are pros and cons to gov't vs private. I've seen lots of ebbing and flowing over the years. From my perception, Manitoba's air services (particularly air ambulance) has been stuck in a rut for a long time. I for one think it'll be good to shake things up.

Great conversation all!
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#36 Post by digits_ » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:24 am

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:51 am


Not true. I've heard of well-founded rumors that the government is in the process of making enormous changes to the dispatching process for air ambulance which is going to save the gov't big $$$.
Interesting. What's going to happen? Are they moving to a one operator in the province kind of deal? Wouldn't that be out of scope for this FRP? As far as I know, this is just about the life flight flights, which have a higher level of equipment/trained personell to accept more critical calls in shorter period of times.
nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:51 am
Rumour at SkyNorth is that the new RFP has performance requirements that would eliminate the King Air 90 and MU2 from available service. Court flying has not been done in Navajos for a few years.
This is true. The performance requirements are steep and additional points are handed out for modern aircraft with advanced avionics. The RFP actually gets quite specific about this. Trust me, operators bidding with old junkers will be ignored. Look at the job postings Babcock has put out. IIRC, they're looking for time on Beech 200, Twin Otters, and Citation 560 XLS. My gut tells me is that EIC is scrambling on this one, and that this RFP is Van Guard's to lose.
Wouldn't the current jet just move/be leased to whoever gets the FRP, so no new equipment required?
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#37 Post by fish4life » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:25 pm

As far as I remember the citations the government currently uses can’t be operated commercially because they don’t make performance numbers work. The only reason the government can do it is they fall under 600 series rules.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#38 Post by nothingbeatsflying » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:18 am

Interesting. What's going to happen? Are they moving to a one operator in the province kind of deal? Wouldn't that be out of scope for this FRP? As far as I know, this is just about the life flight flights, which have a higher level of equipment/trained personell to accept more critical calls in shorter period of times.
Nope. This RFP is for all Air Ambulance - Basic and Critical. The critical care medical crew will continue to be supplied by Manitoba Health. But they want one provider to manage to whole deal. The RFP allows for the winner to subcontract out parts of the contract, but requires that the same level of aircraft performance and safety be maintained.
Wouldn't the current jet just move/be leased to whoever gets the FRP, so no new equipment required?
Nope. They want shiny new equipment. Extra points are awarded for new aircraft with latest gen avionics and enhanced vision.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#39 Post by Roadrunnersmother » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 am

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:18 am
Interesting. What's going to happen? Are they moving to a one operator in the province kind of deal? Wouldn't that be out of scope for this FRP? As far as I know, this is just about the life flight flights, which have a higher level of equipment/trained personell to accept more critical calls in shorter period of times.
Nope. This RFP is for all Air Ambulance - Basic and Critical. The critical care medical crew will continue to be supplied by Manitoba Health. But they want one provider to manage to whole deal. The RFP allows for the winner to subcontract out parts of the contract, but requires that the same level of aircraft performance and safety be maintained.
Wouldn't the current jet just move/be leased to whoever gets the FRP, so no new equipment required?
Nope. They want shiny new equipment. Extra points are awarded for new aircraft with latest gen avionics and enhanced vision.
So there are more flight crews other than the Current gov't crews who are going to be out of work such as Fast Air, Sky North, Missinippi etc depending on who gets the contract ????
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#40 Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:39 am

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:18 am
Interesting. What's going to happen? Are they moving to a one operator in the province kind of deal? Wouldn't that be out of scope for this FRP? As far as I know, this is just about the life flight flights, which have a higher level of equipment/trained personell to accept more critical calls in shorter period of times.
Nope. This RFP is for all Air Ambulance - Basic and Critical. The critical care medical crew will continue to be supplied by Manitoba Health. But they want one provider to manage to whole deal. The RFP allows for the winner to subcontract out parts of the contract, but requires that the same level of aircraft performance and safety be maintained.
Holy baloney, you're right!

Nasty... That is going to hurt quite a few operators. Missinippi is going to have a serious points advantage by being native owned.

Are all the current medevac contracts ending at the same time? Or can the government just cancel their current contracts to switch it over to the new operator?
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#41 Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:04 am

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:51 am

This is true. The performance requirements are steep and additional points are handed out for modern aircraft with advanced avionics. The RFP actually gets quite specific about this. Trust me, operators bidding with old junkers will be ignored. Look at the job postings Babcock has put out. IIRC, they're looking for time on Beech 200, Twin Otters, and Citation 560 XLS. My gut tells me is that EIC is scrambling on this one, and that this RFP is Van Guard's to lose.
The RFP also requires a lifting system for bariatric patients. That would be a problem for Fast Air's King Airs and would give an advantage to Perimeter.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#42 Post by nothingbeatsflying » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:01 pm

I'm assuming Perimter has the bariatric kits for the Metros right? Do the Metro's meet the performance requirements? I'm not familiar enough with them to know.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what the bigger international companies come in with.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#43 Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:13 pm

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:01 pm
I'm assuming Perimter has the bariatric kits for the Metros right? Do the Metro's meet the performance requirements? I'm not familiar enough with them to know.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what the bigger international companies come in with.
Probably only the metro 2, and they are pretty old...
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#44 Post by planett » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:08 pm

I'm wondering how the current level of performance and safety can be maintained, as thegovernment claims, if the jet service is lost? (Considering critical care trips)
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#45 Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 pm

planett wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:08 pm
I'm wondering how the current level of performance and safety can be maintained, as thegovernment claims, if the jet service is lost? (Considering critical care trips)
The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#46 Post by planett » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:02 pm

The jet in the RFP is for "out of province work". The loss of jet service will be "in the province" due to the inability to dispatch a jet to short runways under CAR 704 requirements. That's a loss of service for the province.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#47 Post by ogc » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:27 am

digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 pm

The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.
That doesnt seem like enough. When I was there a few years ago there was what about 16 planes and crews for basic transport us life flight plus the twin otters.

My memory of life flight was their on call nurse and or doctor constantly pushing whatever trips they could on to the basic providers. I recall the phrase "well if you wont do it we will just call someone else" being said a few times.

I dont know if privatising the provincial side is the right answer but there definitely needed to be some changes to the air ambulance system as a whole. I worked in that system for the better part of 4 years and it all seemed kinda crazy at times.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#48 Post by digits_ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:34 am

ogc wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:27 am
digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:14 pm

The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.
That doesnt seem like enough. When I was there a few years ago there was what about 16 planes and crews for basic transport us life flight plus the twin otters.

My memory of life flight was their on call nurse and or doctor constantly pushing whatever trips they could on to the basic providers. I recall the phrase "well if you wont do it we will just call someone else" being said a few times.

I dont know if privatising the provincial side is the right answer but there definitely needed to be some changes to the air ambulance system as a whole. I worked in that system for the better part of 4 years and it all seemed kinda crazy at times.
6 twin turbines flying 24/7 instead of 16 airplanes flying half of the time, can probably do about the same amount of flying if it gets organized properly.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#49 Post by FighterPilot » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:36 am

The 6 planes are for primary care NOT everything province wide. Fast, SkyNorth, Nippi will still be there to do all the basic air ambulance work.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#50 Post by digits_ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:36 am

planett wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:02 pm
due to the inability to dispatch a jet to short runways under CAR 704 requirements. That's a loss of service for the province.
Or an indication they shouldn't have done it in the first place? Also, how much time do you really save by flying in a jet vs flying a king air on 200 NM trips? The biggest advantage of the jet was the equipment and personnel on board, which should be easy to transfer to king airs or similar. If your king airs are spread throughout the province instead of 1/2 jets based in Winnipeg, the response time should actually be shorter.
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