Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

[digits_]

This is true. The performance requirements are steep and additional points are handed out for modern aircraft with advanced avionics. The RFP actually gets quite specific about this. Trust me, operators bidding with old junkers will be ignored. Look at the job postings Babcock has put out. IIRC, they're looking for time on Beech 200, Twin Otters, and Citation 560 XLS. My gut tells me is that EIC is scrambling on this one, and that this RFP is Van Guard's to lose.

The RFP also requires a lifting system for bariatric patients. That would be a problem for Fast Air's King Airs and would give an advantage to Perimeter.

[nothingbeatsflying]

I'm assuming Perimter has the bariatric kits for the Metros right? Do the Metro's meet the performance requirements? I'm not familiar enough with them to know.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what the bigger international companies come in with.

[digits_]

I'm assuming Perimter has the bariatric kits for the Metros right? Do the Metro's meet the performance requirements? I'm not familiar enough with them to know.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what the bigger international companies come in with.

Probably only the metro 2, and they are pretty old...

[planett]

I'm wondering how the current level of performance and safety can be maintained, as thegovernment claims, if the jet service is lost? (Considering critical care trips)

[digits_]

I'm wondering how the current level of performance and safety can be maintained, as thegovernment claims, if the jet service is lost? (Considering critical care trips)

The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.

[planett]

The jet in the RFP is for "out of province work". The loss of jet service will be "in the province" due to the inability to dispatch a jet to short runways under CAR 704 requirements. That's a loss of service for the province.

[ogc]

The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.

That doesnt seem like enough. When I was there a few years ago there was what about 16 planes and crews for basic transport us life flight plus the twin otters.

My memory of life flight was their on call nurse and or doctor constantly pushing whatever trips they could on to the basic providers. I recall the phrase "well if you wont do it we will just call someone else" being said a few times.

I dont know if privatising the provincial side is the right answer but there definitely needed to be some changes to the air ambulance system as a whole. I worked in that system for the better part of 4 years and it all seemed kinda crazy at times.

[digits_]

The RFP wants 6 twin turbine and one jet airplane.

That doesnt seem like enough. When I was there a few years ago there was what about 16 planes and crews for basic transport us life flight plus the twin otters.

My memory of life flight was their on call nurse and or doctor constantly pushing whatever trips they could on to the basic providers. I recall the phrase "well if you wont do it we will just call someone else" being said a few times.

I dont know if privatising the provincial side is the right answer but there definitely needed to be some changes to the air ambulance system as a whole. I worked in that system for the better part of 4 years and it all seemed kinda crazy at times.

6 twin turbines flying 24/7 instead of 16 airplanes flying half of the time, can probably do about the same amount of flying if it gets organized properly.

[FighterPilot]

The 6 planes are for primary care NOT everything province wide. Fast, SkyNorth, Nippi will still be there to do all the basic air ambulance work.

[digits_]

due to the inability to dispatch a jet to short runways under CAR 704 requirements. That's a loss of service for the province.

Or an indication they shouldn't have done it in the first place? Also, how much time do you really save by flying in a jet vs flying a king air on 200 NM trips? The biggest advantage of the jet was the equipment and personnel on board, which should be easy to transfer to king airs or similar. If your king airs are spread throughout the province instead of 1/2 jets based in Winnipeg, the response time should actually be shorter.

[digits_]

The 6 planes are for primary care NOT everything province wide. Fast, SkyNorth, Nippi will still be there to do all the basic air ambulance work.

Any source for that?

*IF* this information is correct, it doesn't look good for the majority of them: https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/columni ... 1533081523

[Loner]

How does one see what the RFP requires? Is it available for public viewing?

if you have access to MERX then yes.
whats your favorite Shiraz?

[planett]

Digits, the response time from Winnipeg is a necessary metric for critical care trips because all of the doctors and neonatal teams etc. are based there where the big hospitals are. Any aircraft repositioning to Winnipeg would only add to the delays before taking the medical expertise to the community in question. Also, if you're suggesting that being fully compliant with CAR 604 and a large aircraft flight manual shouldn't be allowed, then all the basics air ambulances operating CAR 703 small aircraft should cease operations since that's far less restrictive.

[rigpiggy]

Follow the money, somebody will make bank on this

[Tailwheelup]

"Follow the money" - That is understatement. While there is no doubt that greater efficiencies can be achieved
it might well mean a cost increase if the Manitoba Government applies uniform standards.

At present, the regulatory aspect is assumed to be under the care of Transport Canada.
For decades the provinces have been separately approving pilots , nurses, paramedics etc but
those approvals are basically expenses crews and their employers incur to satisfy the paper work trail.

Back in the pre Onge days, you worked a schedule of 12 hours on 12 off for two weeks then two weeks off.
Now, its 15 hours on, 9 hours off, and then 15 hours later, when you have just had 30 minutes sleep, the phone
rings and another 15 hours starts... By then, you are running on empty, its a blatantly obvious cause of fatique
and the responsibility is entirely that of the provincial governments, who fail to ensure that the schedules
they impose, meet with reasonable expectations of safety.

That's just for pilots, paramedics and nurses get an even worse deal.

It boggles the brain to hear the government talk about "getting a better deal" when you never ever
hear them talk about privatizing police or fire services who actually get 12 hours on 12 hours off.

If you take a look at the Red-est states of the USA, you will notice that the Air Ambulance ops are often
run by groups of hospitals, who dictate standards to be employed , and then run their operations on a cost basis
that is paid for by each patient.

It's the first part of that model, that makes sense. With known standards, it is not possible to obtain lower costs
by contracting it out. The second part is equally a provincial government responsibility.

Everyone benefits from a a land or air ambulance waiting on standby, and the entire cost should be born by taxes
not the unfortunate few who end up using the service whose bad luck often destroys their ability to pay.

Governments who bill the patient are adopting conservative mad ideas that generate terror and destruction.
What's next, american style mickey mouse medical plans that have no real "coverage?

The Manitoba Government has yet to demonstrate any substantive comprehension of its own waste of public funds
or show any comprehension of its responsibilities to the citizens of Manitoba.

Suddenly announcing "privatization" has all the hall marks of the former Soviet Union privatizing state assetts
that robbed the citizens and gave to a few rich corrupt criminals.

We have seen nothing to provide any accountability that the Manitoba Government is going about this decision
with "clean hands" and its that lack of accountability and transparency that raises concerns that
those behind this decision have interests in mind that have nothing to do with the public interest.

[digits_]

Digits, the response time from Winnipeg is a necessary metric for critical care trips because all of the doctors and neonatal teams etc. are based there where the big hospitals are. Any aircraft repositioning to Winnipeg would only add to the delays before taking the medical expertise to the community in question. Also, if you're suggesting that being fully compliant with CAR 604 and a large aircraft flight manual shouldn't be allowed, then all the basics air ambulances operating CAR 703 small aircraft should cease operations since that's far less restrictive.

Fair enough, I forgot that all the experts are based in Winnipeg. But even so, worst case scenario would probably be a flight Winnipeg - Churchill. What would be the difference in flight time for a jet vs a fast twin turbine? 15 min? 20 min tops? On a 2.5 hour flight? Fairly insignificant in the total time it takes to get the planes and crews ready and airborne.

If you are referring to "not meeting 704 requirements", I am assuming we are talking about single engine failure performance at take off and accelerated stop distances? It's been a while, but I believe a king air meets those performance specs for the majority of the runways they fly into. A jet would probably not meet the requirements on most gravel runways. In that case, you probably shouldn't be doing those flights in that airplane, even if a 604 loophole allows you to. If you are talking about something else, then I have no clue

[fish4life]

"Follow the money" - That is understatement. While there is no doubt that greater efficiencies can be achieved
it might well mean a cost increase if the Manitoba Government applies uniform standards.

At present, the regulatory aspect is assumed to be under the care of Transport Canada.
For decades the provinces have been separately approving pilots , nurses, paramedics etc but
those approvals are basically expenses crews and their employers incur to satisfy the paper work trail.

Back in the pre Onge days, you worked a schedule of 12 hours on 12 off for two weeks then two weeks off.
Now, its 15 hours on, 9 hours off, and then 15 hours later, when you have just had 30 minutes sleep, the phone
rings and another 15 hours starts... By then, you are running on empty, its a blatantly obvious cause of fatique
and the responsibility is entirely that of the provincial governments, who fail to ensure that the schedules
they impose, meet with reasonable expectations of safety.

That's just for pilots, paramedics and nurses get an even worse deal.

It boggles the brain to hear the government talk about "getting a better deal" when you never ever
hear them talk about privatizing police or fire services who actually get 12 hours on 12 hours off.

If you take a look at the Red-est states of the USA, you will notice that the Air Ambulance ops are often
run by groups of hospitals, who dictate standards to be employed , and then run their operations on a cost basis
that is paid for by each patient.

It's the first part of that model, that makes sense. With known standards, it is not possible to obtain lower costs
by contracting it out. The second part is equally a provincial government responsibility.

Everyone benefits from a a land or air ambulance waiting on standby, and the entire cost should be born by taxes
not the unfortunate few who end up using the service whose bad luck often destroys their ability to pay.

Governments who bill the patient are adopting conservative mad ideas that generate terror and destruction.
What's next, american style mickey mouse medical plans that have no real "coverage?

The Manitoba Government has yet to demonstrate any substantive comprehension of its own waste of public funds
or show any comprehension of its responsibilities to the citizens of Manitoba.

Suddenly announcing "privatization" has all the hall marks of the former Soviet Union privatizing state assetts
that robbed the citizens and gave to a few rich corrupt criminals.

We have seen nothing to provide any accountability that the Manitoba Government is going about this decision
with "clean hands" and its that lack of accountability and transparency that raises concerns that
those behind this decision have interests in mind that have nothing to do with the public interest.

You are aware 99% of the flying is to the reserves, the province bills the federal government

[planett]

digits

There is no 604 "loophole". The jet meets Transport Category performance requirements for every departure, gravel or pavement wet or dry, one engine inoperative. If it can't, the trip is a no go. Regarding Winnipeg-Churchill, the time advantage over turbo props is nearly one hour one way, that's nearly two hours savings round trip to get a patient to critical care, not insignificant.

[digits_]

digits

There is no 604 "loophole". The jet meets Transport Category performance requirements for every departure, gravel or pavement wet or dry, one engine inoperative. If it can't, the trip is a no go. Regarding Winnipeg-Churchill, the time advantage over turbo props is nearly one hour one way, that's nearly two hours savings round trip to get a patient to critical care, not insignificant.

Ok in that case my apologies. Then why can it not operate under 704 though? What performance requirements does it not meet?

[planett]

704 requires jets of any size to demonstrate landings within 60% of available LDA before dispatch, accounting for all conditions present etc. 604 and its equivalent in the US, FAR part 91, requires landings within the LDA. The AFM will require further factoring for gravel, wet, or contamination, so it's still somewhat conservative. So the 604 regulations seem on the surface to be equivalent to 703 small aircraft regulations where landings are concerned in that no excess factoring is required for dispatch, but many small turbo props don't address the gravel case with penalties.

Taken as a whole, the jet is regulated like a large airliner for take offs, and like a turbo prop for landings with some small factoring built in, if it's operated in 604. Hardly a dangerous situation. Business jets operate around the world this way and usually are safer than their Air Taxi counterparts.