Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

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digits_
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#51 Post by digits_ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:45 am

FighterPilot wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:36 am
The 6 planes are for primary care NOT everything province wide. Fast, SkyNorth, Nippi will still be there to do all the basic air ambulance work.
Any source for that?

*IF* this information is correct, it doesn't look good for the majority of them: https://winnipegsun.com/opinion/columni ... 1533081523
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Loner
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#52 Post by Loner » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:08 am

Shiraz wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:00 pm
How does one see what the RFP requires? Is it available for public viewing?
if you have access to MERX then yes.
whats your favorite Shiraz?
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#53 Post by planett » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:48 pm

Digits, the response time from Winnipeg is a necessary metric for critical care trips because all of the doctors and neonatal teams etc. are based there where the big hospitals are. Any aircraft repositioning to Winnipeg would only add to the delays before taking the medical expertise to the community in question. Also, if you're suggesting that being fully compliant with CAR 604 and a large aircraft flight manual shouldn't be allowed, then all the basics air ambulances operating CAR 703 small aircraft should cease operations since that's far less restrictive.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#54 Post by rigpiggy » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 pm

Follow the money, somebody will make bank on this
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#55 Post by Tailwheelup » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:38 pm

"Follow the money" - That is understatement. While there is no doubt that greater efficiencies can be achieved
it might well mean a cost increase if the Manitoba Government applies uniform standards.

At present, the regulatory aspect is assumed to be under the care of Transport Canada.
For decades the provinces have been separately approving pilots , nurses, paramedics etc but
those approvals are basically expenses crews and their employers incur to satisfy the paper work trail.

Back in the pre Onge days, you worked a schedule of 12 hours on 12 off for two weeks then two weeks off.
Now, its 15 hours on, 9 hours off, and then 15 hours later, when you have just had 30 minutes sleep, the phone
rings and another 15 hours starts... By then, you are running on empty, its a blatantly obvious cause of fatique
and the responsibility is entirely that of the provincial governments, who fail to ensure that the schedules
they impose, meet with reasonable expectations of safety.

That's just for pilots, paramedics and nurses get an even worse deal.

It boggles the brain to hear the government talk about "getting a better deal" when you never ever
hear them talk about privatizing police or fire services who actually get 12 hours on 12 hours off.

If you take a look at the Red-est states of the USA, you will notice that the Air Ambulance ops are often
run by groups of hospitals, who dictate standards to be employed , and then run their operations on a cost basis
that is paid for by each patient.

It's the first part of that model, that makes sense. With known standards, it is not possible to obtain lower costs
by contracting it out. The second part is equally a provincial government responsibility.

Everyone benefits from a a land or air ambulance waiting on standby, and the entire cost should be born by taxes
not the unfortunate few who end up using the service whose bad luck often destroys their ability to pay.

Governments who bill the patient are adopting conservative mad ideas that generate terror and destruction.
What's next, american style mickey mouse medical plans that have no real "coverage?

The Manitoba Government has yet to demonstrate any substantive comprehension of its own waste of public funds
or show any comprehension of its responsibilities to the citizens of Manitoba.

Suddenly announcing "privatization" has all the hall marks of the former Soviet Union privatizing state assetts
that robbed the citizens and gave to a few rich corrupt criminals.

We have seen nothing to provide any accountability that the Manitoba Government is going about this decision
with "clean hands" and its that lack of accountability and transparency that raises concerns that
those behind this decision have interests in mind that have nothing to do with the public interest.
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digits_
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#56 Post by digits_ » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:28 pm

planett wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:48 pm
Digits, the response time from Winnipeg is a necessary metric for critical care trips because all of the doctors and neonatal teams etc. are based there where the big hospitals are. Any aircraft repositioning to Winnipeg would only add to the delays before taking the medical expertise to the community in question. Also, if you're suggesting that being fully compliant with CAR 604 and a large aircraft flight manual shouldn't be allowed, then all the basics air ambulances operating CAR 703 small aircraft should cease operations since that's far less restrictive.
Fair enough, I forgot that all the experts are based in Winnipeg. But even so, worst case scenario would probably be a flight Winnipeg - Churchill. What would be the difference in flight time for a jet vs a fast twin turbine? 15 min? 20 min tops? On a 2.5 hour flight? Fairly insignificant in the total time it takes to get the planes and crews ready and airborne.

If you are referring to "not meeting 704 requirements", I am assuming we are talking about single engine failure performance at take off and accelerated stop distances? It's been a while, but I believe a king air meets those performance specs for the majority of the runways they fly into. A jet would probably not meet the requirements on most gravel runways. In that case, you probably shouldn't be doing those flights in that airplane, even if a 604 loophole allows you to. If you are talking about something else, then I have no clue :bear:
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#57 Post by fish4life » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:59 pm

Tailwheelup wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:38 pm
"Follow the money" - That is understatement. While there is no doubt that greater efficiencies can be achieved
it might well mean a cost increase if the Manitoba Government applies uniform standards.

At present, the regulatory aspect is assumed to be under the care of Transport Canada.
For decades the provinces have been separately approving pilots , nurses, paramedics etc but
those approvals are basically expenses crews and their employers incur to satisfy the paper work trail.

Back in the pre Onge days, you worked a schedule of 12 hours on 12 off for two weeks then two weeks off.
Now, its 15 hours on, 9 hours off, and then 15 hours later, when you have just had 30 minutes sleep, the phone
rings and another 15 hours starts... By then, you are running on empty, its a blatantly obvious cause of fatique
and the responsibility is entirely that of the provincial governments, who fail to ensure that the schedules
they impose, meet with reasonable expectations of safety.

That's just for pilots, paramedics and nurses get an even worse deal.

It boggles the brain to hear the government talk about "getting a better deal" when you never ever
hear them talk about privatizing police or fire services who actually get 12 hours on 12 hours off.

If you take a look at the Red-est states of the USA, you will notice that the Air Ambulance ops are often
run by groups of hospitals, who dictate standards to be employed , and then run their operations on a cost basis
that is paid for by each patient.

It's the first part of that model, that makes sense. With known standards, it is not possible to obtain lower costs
by contracting it out. The second part is equally a provincial government responsibility.

Everyone benefits from a a land or air ambulance waiting on standby, and the entire cost should be born by taxes
not the unfortunate few who end up using the service whose bad luck often destroys their ability to pay.

Governments who bill the patient are adopting conservative mad ideas that generate terror and destruction.
What's next, american style mickey mouse medical plans that have no real "coverage?

The Manitoba Government has yet to demonstrate any substantive comprehension of its own waste of public funds
or show any comprehension of its responsibilities to the citizens of Manitoba.

Suddenly announcing "privatization" has all the hall marks of the former Soviet Union privatizing state assetts
that robbed the citizens and gave to a few rich corrupt criminals.

We have seen nothing to provide any accountability that the Manitoba Government is going about this decision
with "clean hands" and its that lack of accountability and transparency that raises concerns that
those behind this decision have interests in mind that have nothing to do with the public interest.
You are aware 99% of the flying is to the reserves, the province bills the federal government
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planett
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#58 Post by planett » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:37 pm

digits

There is no 604 "loophole". The jet meets Transport Category performance requirements for every departure, gravel or pavement wet or dry, one engine inoperative. If it can't, the trip is a no go. Regarding Winnipeg-Churchill, the time advantage over turbo props is nearly one hour one way, that's nearly two hours savings round trip to get a patient to critical care, not insignificant.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#59 Post by digits_ » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:39 pm

planett wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:37 pm
digits

There is no 604 "loophole". The jet meets Transport Category performance requirements for every departure, gravel or pavement wet or dry, one engine inoperative. If it can't, the trip is a no go. Regarding Winnipeg-Churchill, the time advantage over turbo props is nearly one hour one way, that's nearly two hours savings round trip to get a patient to critical care, not insignificant.
Ok in that case my apologies. Then why can it not operate under 704 though? What performance requirements does it not meet?
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#60 Post by planett » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:18 pm

704 requires jets of any size to demonstrate landings within 60% of available LDA before dispatch, accounting for all conditions present etc. 604 and its equivalent in the US, FAR part 91, requires landings within the LDA. The AFM will require further factoring for gravel, wet, or contamination, so it's still somewhat conservative. So the 604 regulations seem on the surface to be equivalent to 703 small aircraft regulations where landings are concerned in that no excess factoring is required for dispatch, but many small turbo props don't address the gravel case with penalties.

Taken as a whole, the jet is regulated like a large airliner for take offs, and like a turbo prop for landings with some small factoring built in, if it's operated in 604. Hardly a dangerous situation. Business jets operate around the world this way and usually are safer than their Air Taxi counterparts.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#61 Post by digits_ » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:46 pm

planett wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:18 pm
704 requires jets of any size to demonstrate landings within 60% of available LDA before dispatch, accounting for all conditions present etc. 604 and its equivalent in the US, FAR part 91, requires landings within the LDA. The AFM will require further factoring for gravel, wet, or contamination, so it's still somewhat conservative. So the 604 regulations seem on the surface to be equivalent to 703 small aircraft regulations where landings are concerned in that no excess factoring is required for dispatch, but many small turbo props don't address the gravel case with penalties.

Taken as a whole, the jet is regulated like a large airliner for take offs, and like a turbo prop for landings with some small factoring built in, if it's operated in 604. Hardly a dangerous situation. Business jets operate around the world this way and usually are safer than their Air Taxi counterparts.
Thank you for the clarification.

What allowed the province to operate as 604? The pilots were company personnel, but the medics experts were probably paid by the hospitals and the pax/patients were definitely not company personnel. To the untrained eye, it would seem as if it was a 704 operation all along?
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#62 Post by planett » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:34 pm

A State Operator or Government Air Service as applicable is not a business in pursuit of an income or profit by operating the aircraft. Any money that changes hands is simply between government agencies for cost recovery. Patients are not charged for the transport, the taxpayer is. Employees of other departments aren't paying for the seat they occupy but are paid for the function they are available to perform. Nobody can charter a government aircraft for their own use, so government aircraft are only available for things like health care and resource management and protection.

In a privatized model, the taxpayer still pays for the service but the operator is expected to keep some of the revenues above and beyond costs as profit, the aircraft may also be available for other revenue generating activities separate from the government contract, something a 604 operator is forbidden from doing.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#63 Post by Tailwheelup » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:28 am

Ontario is a good example of how a Government can screw up a good system by enabling a few to basically steal tax payers funds.
Now that there is a Conservative government in Ontario, it stands to reason, that they could, out of conservative principles,
just tear up ONGE for no other reason than to dismantle what it sees as a socialist experiment gone bad.

My view is that it worked very efficiently prior to ONGE.
However, even in pre ONGE days, I would often see Helicopters being used when it would have been less cost to use
a fixed wing. The reason apparently was because they wanted to give them some flight hours.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#64 Post by greygoose » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:45 pm

Regarding the air ambulance side of things...I don’t think any company will have an easy time winning this bid. From what I’ve heard the government has actually done a pretty fair job of making the RFP difficult for everyone in their own special way whether it’s past safety issues, TC problems, necessary equipment upgrades (both new additions and modifications), Hangar facilities, bad financial records, staffing issues, being a non MB based business and the list goes on. It’s actually going to be very interesting to watch this all play out and who comes out on top with the most points. Most of us will never see them except for the winning one perhaps, but I think there will be some pretty interesting bids put on the table.

The information I’ve heard is that the winner(if there is one) will get first priority over ALL air ambulance trips both basic and critical. The rest of the trips unable to be done by the primary operator will still be picked up by current operators. So although it’ll cut a good chunk of work out for the non winners it sounds like there will still be plenty to go around with the current trend in air ambulance flights in MB.

The way I see it is if the winning bidder will be able to deliver on all their promises as required by the RFP (and it sounds like there are A LOT) and run near perfect, it’ll be a much more efficient system. However if there are big hiccups with the new primary provider taking it over it could be quite the show. I know if I was in the government there would be one company I’d be avoiding with how their last couple years have gone...no matter who sits on their board.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#65 Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:45 am

greygoose wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:45 pm
Regarding the air ambulance side of things...I don’t think any company will have an easy time winning this bid. From what I’ve heard the government has actually done a pretty fair job of making the RFP difficult for everyone in their own special way whether it’s past safety issues, TC problems, necessary equipment upgrades (both new additions and modifications), Hangar facilities, bad financial records, staffing issues, being a non MB based business and the list goes on. It’s actually going to be very interesting to watch this all play out and who comes out on top with the most points. Most of us will never see them except for the winning one perhaps, but I think there will be some pretty interesting bids put on the table.

The information I’ve heard is that the winner(if there is one) will get first priority over ALL air ambulance trips both basic and critical. The rest of the trips unable to be done by the primary operator will still be picked up by current operators. So although it’ll cut a good chunk of work out for the non winners it sounds like there will still be plenty to go around with the current trend in air ambulance flights in MB.
True, but the amended FRP changed the amount of airplanes to a MINIMUM of 7 planes, which means that, technically, the winner could add an unlimited amount of airplanes to get all the work....
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#66 Post by Tailwheelup » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:59 pm

The RFP appears to be written in generic language.
Seven aircraft, that covers most. A lifting system for bariatric patients, that describes Perimeter.

The government is avoiding publicity and keeping it low key, alluding that "no decision"
is the way it will "appear" to go. This could well be a deliberate illusion.


With their emphasis on costs, changing the 15 hour duty day to a 12 hour day,
is unlikely to occur.

If conservative madness happens, they will throw out safety, copy other countries and go single pilot PC-12 and 12 hour shifts.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#67 Post by greygoose » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

Tailwheelup wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:59 pm
The RFP appears to be written in generic language.
Seven aircraft, that covers most. A lifting system for bariatric patients, that describes Perimeter.

The government is avoiding publicity and keeping it low key, alluding that "no decision"
is the way it will "appear" to go. This could well be a deliberate illusion.


With their emphasis on costs, changing the 15 hour duty day to a 12 hour day,
is unlikely to occur.

If conservative madness happens, they will throw out safety, copy other countries and go single pilot PC-12 and 12 hour shifts.
It’s very clear that single pilot and or single engine won’t be considered as the primary aircraft to deliver service so no they won’t be going with either of those options.

Perimeter may have bariatric kits but the Metro II’s are old and as far as I know still don’t have updated avionics on the medevac side of their ops so they’d need to do that to win more points. Plus their issues with TC won’t help any...

If any EIC company has a chance it’s probably Keewatin. But even that will be a large undertaking with having to buy/staff another whole fleet for the MB side of things.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#68 Post by digits_ » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:38 am

Any updates? According to the timeline in the original RFP the final negotiations should be finished by now.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#69 Post by greygoose » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:25 pm

I believe they had extended all the dates at least a couple weeks because of interest in viewing the aircraft for sale that would be used in the proposals. That’s the last I heard, not sure if it’s been extended again. I believe the interviews for the short list should have wrapped up last week according to amended dates but that’s all I’ve heard as of recently.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#70 Post by North Shore » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:06 am

RFP has closed; several proposals in; proceed direct to CYWG, hold North, etc... EFC end of October.
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#71 Post by leftoftrack » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:23 am

isnt ornge private? 😂😂😂
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Re: Manitoba Govt Air Services to be Privatised

#72 Post by tsgas » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:37 am

Tailwheelup wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:59 pm
The RFP appears to be written in generic language.
Seven aircraft, that covers most. A lifting system for bariatric patients, that describes Perimeter.

The government is avoiding publicity and keeping it low key, alluding that "no decision"
is the way it will "appear" to go. This could well be a deliberate illusion.


With their emphasis on costs, changing the 15 hour duty day to a 12 hour day,
is unlikely to occur.

If conservative madness happens, they will throw out safety, copy other countries and go single pilot PC-12 and 12 hour shifts.
you socialists really have a hatred for conservatives. FYI communism always fails wherever it is implemented.
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