Air Canada Tokyo Incident

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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:32 am

Victory wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:04 am
It was already mentioned by pelmet above that this taxiway wasn't on any chart and not in the NOTAMs. It's hard for you guys to change your mind once you've already decided on something.

It is a perfect example of some of the 'Gotcha's" out there. They exist. We don't know what they might be except that it will be something unexpected. This one was an incident waiting to happen.

But once again, that doesn't mean that there isn't something to learn from it. Nobody else ended up on this taxiway and probably wasn't paved just yesterday. Should you look for a taxiway sign name before you go onto a taxiway? After all, there are old, closed taxiways that may not be marked. Are you one of those guys exiting at such a high speed that it feels more like a swerve and most of your concentration is focused on slowing down and maintaining control instead of exiting at a reasonable speed and scanning around at which point the very close by, actual high speed exit will be seen. Do the paint markings make sense? Do you use the yellow centerline stripe as a reference or the centerline lights?


As a note of interest, there was a lot of controversy about this airport when it was built and the farming land that was used up. Many farmers refused at the time to sell but the government went ahead and opened the airport, initially with one, long runway. It took a long time for the second runway to be built but it was, in sections over time as farmers slowly sold their land. It wasn't until enough pieces of land were sold that the sections of runway could be connected and finally opened. There is still a section of land south of the threshold of 34R that is an active farm. if you use google earth to zoom into the airport and look in this area, you can see the farm just south of the runway and a section of runway south of the farm with a high-speed exit already built and waiting to be connected to the main body of the runway when this farmer finally sells out. It laso explains the curve in the parallelt taxiway near the threshold of runway 34R. They built the airport around the farms.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Xander » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:40 pm

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:53 pm

pelmet wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pm
Rockie could provide some more info but he may have been quietly told by his employer to stop embarrassing them and no longer post on company incidents.
I don't know anything about this incident, and when have I ever provided information or even an opinion on any incident regardless of who it is before the facts are known? Speculating is a pointless mugs game.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by complexintentions » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:33 pm

The moving map is not used as a reference as to which high-speed exit one is going to use during the landing roll. :roll:

They misidentified the exit and took the wrong one.

Embarrassing.

Not fatal.

Has happened to every airline.

This is the state of aviation now, that we have to create drama where it doesn't exist. Like Facebook.

Why I barely look at AvCanada anymore.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:57 pm

For sure it can happen to anyone but fortunately it does not injure or kill anyone.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Jet Jockey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:20 pm

Shit happens... Everyone can learn something about the incident when they complete the investigation.

I'm wondering why no temporary red lights were not installed to avoid something like this.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by 98 Corolla » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:27 pm

My first time in Narita I noticed some green taxiways and thought it was some new type of material they were using instead of concrete. Upon closer inspection they weren't in very good condition and that is when I realized they were under construction and painted green to look like infield (in a shade not very similar to grass). It's an interesting idea aesthetically but not very intuitive. After all most people don't associate green with stop.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:41 pm

No doubt NOTAMS are a little outdated and sometimes overwhelming, but sh*t, for 200K + a year, an AC 787 captain makes, he (or she) better recite them like a poem, before they land at the destination. With all that being said, I'll wait and see what the actual report will say (if there will ever be one available to the public). Things are not always as "initially reported". There are many factors here.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Bede » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:19 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:41 pm
No doubt NOTAMS are a little outdated and sometimes overwhelming, but sh*t, for 200K + a year, an AC 787 captain makes, he (or she) better recite them like a poem, before they land at the destination.
Hans,

You've already established your ignorance on this forum. Just stop posting.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:14 pm

So if you make $100,000 you should only look at half the notams?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:28 pm

Bede wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:19 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:41 pm
No doubt NOTAMS are a little outdated and sometimes overwhelming, but sh*t, for 200K + a year, an AC 787 captain makes, he (or she) better recite them like a poem, before they land at the destination.
Hans,

You've already established your ignorance on this forum. Just stop posting.
I think you need to read between the lines here. I'm sure you can. Just give it a try. Let me put it to you in words that you may understand. Clearly, sarcasm is not your forte. You must be the life of a party, wherever you go.

What I meant by my SARCASTIC comment, is that "...At their level of experience, these small, yet important details should not be missed, confused or accidentally omitted."

Get a life man, you need to relax a bit.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:30 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:14 pm
So if you make $100,000 you should only look at half the notams?
If that's what you got from my post, let's go with it. What the hell... it's the internet!
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Bede » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:44 pm

Hans,

It appears that you don't understand what sarcasm is. The rhetorical device that you used is overstatement.

#lifeoftheparty
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by NotDirty! » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:43 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:41 pm
No doubt NOTAMS are a little outdated and sometimes overwhelming, but sh*t, for 200K + a year, an AC 787 captain makes, he (or she) better recite them like a poem, before they land at the destination. With all that being said, I'll wait and see what the actual report will say (if there will ever be one available to the public). Things are not always as "initially reported". There are many factors here.
Regardless of how much you get paid, it is awfully hard to read a NOTAM that doesn’t exist.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by altiplano » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am

No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.

I can see how it happened, you see on the chart that you need to take the first right after B5, you go past B5 and there is a high-speed to the right, with the end of the runway approaching quickly.
It probably has a B7 sign right next to it on the far side too.
Probably seemed about right after a 14 or 15 hour day.
From the aerial photo it appears no taxi lead out lines from the runway to B7, just a little further along.

They made a mistake, they stopped, they got help, it inconvenienced some people... glad it wasn't me.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:19 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am
No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:53 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:19 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am
No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
Are you beginning to see yet the value of waiting for the facts Pelmet, rather than shooting your mouth off with nothing to back you up? Waste of time and credibility.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:53 am
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:19 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am
No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
Are you beginning to see yet the value of waiting for the facts Pelmet, rather than shooting your mouth off with nothing to back you up? Waste of time and credibility.
Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.

But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible. In fact, it is all quite pertinent(with some interesting history of the airport added on).

Embarrassing the company again, eh.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:29 am

Unfortunately, some people don't like others posting information which could help avoid an incident but it is too important not to. There is another lesson to be learned here, although it may upset Rockie if I point it out...…..it was mentioned earlier. Don't taxi over green painted areas unless you are absolutely sure it is OK to do so. As you can see in the picture in the thread, the new taxiway has been painted green on the part near the runway in order to make it supposedly look like grass.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:36 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible.
In the absense of fact you post innuendo meant not to clarify, but to suggest. Not even close to credible.
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.
pelmet wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:32 am
Nobody else ended up on this taxiway and probably wasn't paved just yesterday. Should you look for a taxiway sign name before you go onto a taxiway? After all, there are old, closed taxiways that may not be marked. Are you one of those guys exiting at such a high speed that it feels more like a swerve and most of your concentration is focused on slowing down and maintaining control instead of exiting at a reasonable speed and scanning around at which point the very close by, actual high speed exit will be seen. Do the paint markings make sense? Do you use the yellow centerline stripe as a reference or the centerline lights?
pelmet wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pm
Rockie could provide some more info but he may have been quietly told by his employer to stop embarrassing them and no longer post on company incidents.
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Embarrassing the company again, eh.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:57 am

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:36 am
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible.
In the absense of fact you post innuendo meant not to clarify, but to suggest. Not even close to credible.
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.
pelmet wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:32 am
Nobody else ended up on this taxiway and probably wasn't paved just yesterday. Should you look for a taxiway sign name before you go onto a taxiway? After all, there are old, closed taxiways that may not be marked. Are you one of those guys exiting at such a high speed that it feels more like a swerve and most of your concentration is focused on slowing down and maintaining control instead of exiting at a reasonable speed and scanning around at which point the very close by, actual high speed exit will be seen. Do the paint markings make sense? Do you use the yellow centerline stripe as a reference or the centerline lights?
pelmet wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pm
Rockie could provide some more info but he may have been quietly told by his employer to stop embarrassing them and no longer post on company incidents.
pelmet wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am
Embarrassing the company again, eh.
All flight related stuff is applicable to any typical airline flight. Ian well aware that this could have happened to me and are some of the initial thoughts I have made to myself to hopefully prevent the same happening to me.

However, I while I only said "May Have Been Told", I will assume that you are confirming otherwise, welcome you back from a long period of minimal posting and remove it. Then we can continue to discuss ways to prevent future incidents.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:20 pm

Look at the bright side of these events pelmet.

Air Canada and Rockie do give us some interesting stuff to examine and maybe learn from.

Remember this is an aviation forum and these events are something that gives us things to examine and maybe figure out what not to do.

I am waiting to see if we find out why that Navajo landed on the street in Calgary and these Air Canada events are something to fill in the time as they are if nothing else, interesting.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:16 pm

You're assuming incorrectly Pelmet...again.

And you’re employing innuendo...again.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:40 pm

Are there many other screw ups made by airlines that just do not make it into the news?

One would wonder why Air Canada seems to have these embarrassing events considering there are so many way bigger airlines flying into the same airports but we don't seem to hear about them doing the same things so often.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:11 pm

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:16 pm
You're assuming incorrectly Pelmet...again.

And you’re employing innuendo...again.
Regardless of how you feel, they are ideas for myself to consider. And they will work. I doubt there will be a report from the Japanese for something so minor and guess what........In the name of company secrecy, Rockie will never pass on a report(or information gained) onto this forum. Kind of convenient I suppose for AC. It all just disappears. So, all the rest of us have left is guesses or thoughts on how to prevent, yet we are the bad guys. However, I do promise to not say anything else if you promise to give all info that comes your way on what happened and what is being done to prevent it happening again so others can learn.
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