Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

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Diadem
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Diadem »

It's amazing that so many of the pilots who complain about Canada and go overseas end up coming back here to work for companies like Swoop. Not many seem to go to the US despite the imcomparable economy, so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
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Cat Driver
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Cat Driver »

so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
Could it be they were born here and their families live here and their government pensions are here etc?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by complexintentions »

Or possibly, don't have the right to live and work in the US, don'tcha think? Exactly what makes you think you're able to even collect stats on how many expats come back to Canada versus those who don't? Oh that's right, you can't.

I left the UAE and most definitely didn't move back to Canada. I actually did consider the Swoop job cause the self-righteous rhetoric from certain folks annoyed and amused me at the same time so I thought it could be funny to get a job there, sort of like farting at a funeral.

But I realized I didn't really want to be poor again and my tastes don't run to communism. Is it still complaining when you actually DO something instead of just running your mouth,(like your post)?
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

There are lots of pilots now in Canada that are Captains on Airbus, 737’s, EMB’s, CRJ’s in their 20’s. There was a time when that was unheard of due to career progression rates and hiring practices.

Right place - right time. Perhaps not a great era to have been in the airline business (CCAA, liquidations, mergers, etc) but it is certainly a great time to be getting in to the profession.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam »

Diadem wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:34 am It's amazing that so many of the pilots who complain about Canada and go overseas end up coming back here to work for companies like Swoop. Not many seem to go to the US despite the imcomparable economy, so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
Typically it is because the wives want to come back and be with the family. Community and all that. Reason why I'm back, dragged by the heels kicking and screaming. Ask around, about 1 in 10 of the guys would prefer it overseas.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:13 am The Middle East? You're about a million times more likely to die on Sheik Zayed Road in a car accident than a DRONE ATTACK! lol The area has NEVER been stable, when I worked there they had Israeli F-16's cruising low-level up the Gulf regularly, drilling for raids on Iranian nuclear facilities. That makes for a very jumpy and unhappy neighbour, just 30 miles across the water. I'm sure people know Iran is much closer to the UAE and orders of magnitude more militarily capable than Yemen? Still went, made a pile, had a blast. Never worried for a second. And still motoring along, just fine thanks.

Again, go there, don't go there, do whatever you want. But try to make a rational decision, not an emotional one based on fear, or the boringly predictable shit-slinging by those who've never lived there a day in their lives. The crushing EK rosters are way more scary than the war in Yemen.

Incidentally far more people get gunned down in Toronto these days than are dying in UAE drone attacks. Not an opinion, a verifiable fact with y'know, numbers and such.

Always keep some perspective.
The war in Yemen was supposed to last 2 weeks - that was 3 years ago. Hardly surprising there is now some 'blowback'.

The issue isn't getting killed in a drone or .. attack - obviously that's extremely unlikely. Anyway that never happened - the UAE government said so!

The Houthis have found a simple way to cause huge Economic damage to the UAE - classic asymmetric warfare.

Having to close airspace and delay/cancel flights will cost some serious $$. Not to mention all the passengers who will avoid transferring through the region. That will have consequences for anyone employed in the UAE.

I'd say this would be something to think about.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:30 am We sit hear and complain but at the end of the day pilots need to take on some of the responsibility for conditions in the industry. I know one simple solution, increase the requirement for an ATP in right seat of 705 aircraft. The present situation makes no sense to me. Reality check for pilots and airline companies.

Salary levels at the present time are likely on the low side but since the objections to bonds and the present market has forced companies to drop bonds, the only way to recover training costs is to initiate low starting salaries. It's the history of aviation in Canada, chasing the iron, and no morals and will dump a job as soon as something comes up that looks a little better. It is just human nature, it will never change so suck it up do you dues and you will possibly make a good living out of it. I did and I never worked for a level 1 carrier.
I agree it is part "our fault" as well, but mainly driven by unions. Unions have created a situation that is fighting the normal law of supply and demand, and if you browse through Western history, that usually doesn't end well.

The problem is the huge discrepancy in pay between a first year and a 30 year of seniority pilot. If you look at AC, roughly, the senior guy will/could make about 5 times as much as a year 1 guy, maybe even more? I understand that experience needs to be valued, but such a huge difference is unnecessary. You fly a plane from A to B, safely while adhering to SOPs. Experience is important for those freaky incidents that need to be handled, and to optimize the flight as much as possible. But how do you justify a 500% pay increase? Hard to say. Someone will chime in and mention supply and demand, basic economics, open markets etc. This may or may not be true, because of the unions. If things go well, pilots deserve more pay. Ok, great. Unions have a big say in which pilots get more pay. No surprise that senior guys get more of the salary raise than the junior guys. If things are going bad, airline is struggling, out come the creative hats: cut away at the junior guys by implementing new pay scales, new pension rules etc. All to protect the current employees and have them be overpaid in the struggling economy. If things go well again, what happens: everyone gets a pay raise, not just the junior guys who lost during the downturn. And so the cycle continues. During bad times the top level employees are safe, junior/new guys lose. During good times, everyone gets a raise.

That is not sustainable. Symptom of that is the Swoop debacle.

Even if you are in the system and starting to make good money, what would you prefer: a 30 year career with good wages varying let's say 50% from start to finish, or a 30 year career where you need to make all your money for retirement in the last 10 year? Would really suck if you lost your medical at year 20. No big retirement dreams for you!

One big argument will be: "if we don't pay our senior guys that much, they'll leave!". Would they though? If it was all about the money, the ones who would want to leave, would already have left for Asia/Middle East/.... So that leaves switching airlines within Canada. No senior guy will do that, since everything is pretty much governed by seniority, another cancerous system in aviation, but that's a rant for another day :wink:
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

My point is that if Jazz, Encore or any other regional or airline FO job asks you to reside in one of the bases in Canada ie Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal or Toronto, the pay should be at or above the average monthly rent that it costs to reside there. Currently the wages do not reflect that whatsoever.

Lets take the average rent for a 1 bedroom place in the four cities/bases mentioned above, which happens to be $1615 per month. Basic life finances say you should spend no more than 30% of your monthly salary before taxes on rent or mortgage. $1615 times three is $4845. So to make ends meet comfortably or at least how basic finances say, you should be earning $58,140 per year. I don't see any FO starting salary close to this figure. If you get on with Jazz where you are not allowed to choose where they base you first hand, and they plock you into YVR or YYZ base, your average rent in those cities is $2015 a month for a one bedroom meaning your pay should be around $72k if you were to adhere to the 30% of your paycheck for rent. Something needs to change. Obviously, the average Jazz FO cant afford this unless they live with mum and dad in the basement, or live with roommates further away from the airport or use crash pads. This is not a sustainable life IMO nor is it an appealing one.

So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Diadem »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 am So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
As long as there are pilots accepting those positions, there's no economic reason for them to do that. Wages won't go up until they can't fill seats, and they'll drop experience levels as long as they can before they offer more money.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Cavalier44 »

Diadem wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:22 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 am So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
As long as there are pilots accepting those positions, there's no economic reason for them to do that. Wages won't go up until they can't fill seats, and they'll drop experience levels as long as they can before they offer more money.
This is why, as professional pilots in this country, we need to push strongly for more stringent rules on experience levels in our flight decks. At a minimum, we should be implementing a 1500 hour minimum for 705 FOs, as they have already done in the USA. As long as airlines can continue to lower the experience requirements in this country to meet demand, we'll never see the same improvements in working conditions as they have south of the border.

As a profession we need to come together and let our elected respresentatives know that these practices are unacceptable. Transport Canada has a history of being chronically ineffective in implementing new regulations (see the new fatigue regulations which have been in the works for years and are still unimplemented, and even when they are they'll still lag behind the USA and Europe). At the same time, organizations such as the Air Transport Association of Canada (ATAC) have run very effective smear campaigns on social media which have sought to discredit fatigue-based science and the implementation of new duty regs in this country. Whether it has to do with fatigue regs or exprience levels in our flight decks, we need to get organized as pilots and start telling our elected officials and the travelling public "No! These practices are unacceptable and cannot continue." Only then will we start to see the improvements in this industry that they've seen in the USA and elsewhere.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by jschnurr »

rudder wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm However, with several 24 year olds being hired at AC (vs average age 34 at US legacy carriers). There is total career earning potential well above $10 million available in Canada if you are in the right place a time the right time and were born in the 1990’s.
$10 million over 40 years is an average of $250,000 per year.
If it takes you 20 years to make that (say starting at $50K and increasing by $50K every 5 years), then you need to make an average of $375,000 for your last 20 years.

Not sure how this is possible in Canada for the average pilot.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

jschnurr wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:12 pm
rudder wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm However, with several 24 year olds being hired at AC (vs average age 34 at US legacy carriers). There is total career earning potential well above $10 million available in Canada if you are in the right place a time the right time and were born in the 1990’s.
$10 million over 40 years is an average of $250,000 per year.
If it takes you 20 years to make that (say starting at $50K and increasing by $50K every 5 years), then you need to make an average of $375,000 for your last 20 years.

Not sure how this is possible in Canada for the average pilot.
Clearly not the norm. Won’t happen for the average commercial pilot. However, following career path is already happening at AC:

NB CA @$240k/yr age 30/after 2-5 years of service.

Over 1800 AC pilots will retire in the next 15 years. Seniority number 3000 today will be number 1200 in 15 years.

WB CA @$300k/yr age 45 after 17-20 years of service.

In 2018 dollars this would be $3.6MM plus 6MM. Apply inflation over the next 35 years and 8.6MM in 2018 dollars will easily exceed $10MM in total career T4 earnings.

I have had a fairly tame career as far as earnings are concerned yet have earned $3.6MM thus far and will retire in a few years early having earned approximately $5MM. The potential economic career trajectory for a twenty something hired by AC in the last couple of years will dwarf anything seen before due to advancement opportunities driven by historic growth and historic retirement attrition.

Won’t happen for everybody. But will happen for some. There are already instances of Captaincies in the 20’s at several significant Canadian carriers. Even Sunwing and Transat will have younger pilots that have taken advantage of upgrade opportunities making much more over their careers than their predecessors.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by LegoMan »

I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 »

LegoMan wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:41 am I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
That's fine. 80k doesn't come close to paying for the lifestyle I want with having enough left over to save. If it works for you, perfect. One less guy to compete with for the high paying jobs ;)
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

$80k will barely support a single individual paying rent in YVR/YYZ/YUL.

With the new mortgage lending guidelines, household income of at least $100k is required for entry level housing within one hour drive of the 3 major airports (which also happen to be the 3 major crew bases for several of the CDN airlines).

Add in a family, and the minimum household income threshold in a major metropolitan centre rises accordingly.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam »

LegoMan wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:41 am I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
Why should both need to work? I have one kid and my wife who is a doctor stays at home to look after the kid. We want her raised by us with our values and also to enjoy her at this age. Not raised by some expensive daycare and iPads.

Might sound old fashioned, but if it has worked for the entire history of mankind, it can work for us. There's more to life than hamsters on the wheel working for the benefit of some shareholders.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

Starting pay as a at Cargojet now $70k.

Glad to see market forces are working at some level of the CDN industry.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126023
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
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