Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

jschnurr wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:12 pm
rudder wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm However, with several 24 year olds being hired at AC (vs average age 34 at US legacy carriers). There is total career earning potential well above $10 million available in Canada if you are in the right place a time the right time and were born in the 1990’s.
$10 million over 40 years is an average of $250,000 per year.
If it takes you 20 years to make that (say starting at $50K and increasing by $50K every 5 years), then you need to make an average of $375,000 for your last 20 years.

Not sure how this is possible in Canada for the average pilot.
Clearly not the norm. Won’t happen for the average commercial pilot. However, following career path is already happening at AC:

NB CA @$240k/yr age 30/after 2-5 years of service.

Over 1800 AC pilots will retire in the next 15 years. Seniority number 3000 today will be number 1200 in 15 years.

WB CA @$300k/yr age 45 after 17-20 years of service.

In 2018 dollars this would be $3.6MM plus 6MM. Apply inflation over the next 35 years and 8.6MM in 2018 dollars will easily exceed $10MM in total career T4 earnings.

I have had a fairly tame career as far as earnings are concerned yet have earned $3.6MM thus far and will retire in a few years early having earned approximately $5MM. The potential economic career trajectory for a twenty something hired by AC in the last couple of years will dwarf anything seen before due to advancement opportunities driven by historic growth and historic retirement attrition.

Won’t happen for everybody. But will happen for some. There are already instances of Captaincies in the 20’s at several significant Canadian carriers. Even Sunwing and Transat will have younger pilots that have taken advantage of upgrade opportunities making much more over their careers than their predecessors.
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LegoMan
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by LegoMan »

I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
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ant_321
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 »

LegoMan wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:41 am I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
That's fine. 80k doesn't come close to paying for the lifestyle I want with having enough left over to save. If it works for you, perfect. One less guy to compete with for the high paying jobs ;)
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

$80k will barely support a single individual paying rent in YVR/YYZ/YUL.

With the new mortgage lending guidelines, household income of at least $100k is required for entry level housing within one hour drive of the 3 major airports (which also happen to be the 3 major crew bases for several of the CDN airlines).

Add in a family, and the minimum household income threshold in a major metropolitan centre rises accordingly.
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flyzam
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam »

LegoMan wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:41 am I don't see what is wrong with 80k a year. On two incomes, you should be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle. Even better if you can live on the highest income and bank the other.
Why should both need to work? I have one kid and my wife who is a doctor stays at home to look after the kid. We want her raised by us with our values and also to enjoy her at this age. Not raised by some expensive daycare and iPads.

Might sound old fashioned, but if it has worked for the entire history of mankind, it can work for us. There's more to life than hamsters on the wheel working for the benefit of some shareholders.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

Starting pay as a at Cargojet now $70k.

Glad to see market forces are working at some level of the CDN industry.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126023
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eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
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eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

I see it simply as the law of supply and demand in action.

CJ has commitments to its cargo customers and has decided it is not willing to inform customers of cancelled flights/shipments over a lack of crews.

Hopefully this same enlightenment and action will occur elsewhere. However, in some local instances the law of supply and demand is artificially constrained.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am
rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
What is your international std ? coz i can tell you that my international std WDB is 300K CAD for 1st year FO too.

You know what eyebrow in french we call guys like you mauvaise langue.
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eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:29 am I see it simply as the law of supply and demand in action.

CJ has commitments to its cargo customers and has decided it is not willing to inform customers of cancelled flights/shipments over a lack of crews.

Hopefully this same enlightenment and action will occur elsewhere. However, in some local instances the law of supply and demand is artificially constrained.
Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
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Last edited by eyebrow737 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

Anticyclone wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am
rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am

How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
What is your international std ? coz i can tell you that my international std WDB is 300K CAD for 1st year FO too.

You know what eyebrow in french we call guys like you mauvaise langue.
My international standard is having flown in 5 continents for the past 27 years.

You know what we say about people like you in HK? Diu lay lo mo chow hai.
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ant_321
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 »

It's great that they start at 70k but where do the pay scales top out?
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:45 am

Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
The CJ pilots are unionized. CJ is not in CCAA and I have not heard any rumours of their negotiating committee being locked up in the Minister of Labour’s office in YOW.

If the WAWCON changed at CJ it is because the CJ pilots voted for it.
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flyzam
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam »

Hardly the role model of supply and demand that you espouse. Unions are the enemy of the free market as examplified by this outcome.

Threats were made, the majority folded and people are looking for new jobs
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

flyzam wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:08 pm Hardly the role model of supply and demand that you espouse. Unions are the enemy of the free market as examplified by this outcome.

Threats were made, the majority folded and people are looking for new jobs
Even pilots in a unionised environment have to deal with economics and external pressures. The Canadian piloting profession has been under duress for decades. But the tide is slowly turning.

I have no information on the issues facing the CJ pilots or what choices they have made. But what I do know is that if there is a pilot exodus as a result that the employer will be forced to revisit the matters.

Perhaps the CJ pilots should collectively examine alternative representation.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by munzil »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:44 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:45 am

Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
The CJ pilots are unionized. CJ is not in CCAA and I have not heard any rumours of their negotiating committee being locked up in the Minister of Labour’s office in YOW.

If the WAWCON changed at CJ it is because the CJ pilots voted for it.
Going back to the original thread of this topic, this is why people are sick of the Canadian Aviation Industry. A new contract comes up, the union agrees to two more days work and no pay raise except for paying for those two days.

There has never been a better time to recount for the loses in the past 17 years to Wacom and the union and majority voted for nothing special apart from keeping their jobs under the threat of firings from the union representative.

The system is broken and the unions are complicit as to why WACOM is by far the worst in Canada.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by dhc# »

Union MECs and company management M/O's often are not that different (the needs of the few trump the needs of the many).
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Beefitarian »

telex wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:30 am

That's Shanghai on the right with an air quality index of 430. Anything over 301 is hazardous.

Image

Make sure you know what you're getting into.
Is that Red Deer Alberta on the left?
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