Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

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Panama Jack
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Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Panama Jack »

I am curious if any pilots can relate their experiences on getting a Category 3 Medical when they are holders of a Commercial or ATP license (obviously, they don't envision using their Commercial or ATP privileges during that period). What happens to the Commercial or ATP in your booklet? It seems to me that the Category 3 validates your license but of course you are restricted to Private Pilot privileges. Comments?
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by photofly »

A category 3 medical is insufficient to exercise any privileges of a CPL or ATPL.

You would have to ask for your licence to be downgraded to a PPL (permanently) to make that work.

If you have a category 1 medical it's validity period matches a category 3 medical validity period for the exercise of PPL privileges, but it's still a category 1 medical.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Kaykay »

According to CARs 421.30 and 421.34

CPL 421.30:

(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30)

(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.
(amended 2007/12/30)

(c) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30)

ATPL 421.34:

(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30)

(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.
(amended 2007/12/30)

(c) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30)

You are not required to permanently "downgrade" a license; I've never heard of TC ever saying that. I've asked this same question years ago to an Inspector and they told me exactly what the CARs said; that if you have a CPL or ATPL, and your medical drops to a cat 3 due to passing the cat 1 validity date, you are just restricted to exercising PPL privileges. If you then were to receive a cat 1 medical again later on, your commercial privileges would then be authorized again.

To the original poster, of course as always your best bet is to speak to an Inspector directly and clarify but this is what the CARs say and this is what I've been told asking the same question of an Inspector so I'm sure you'd get a similar response.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by photofly »

Lots of people make the error you're making.

Your medical doesn't "downgrade" when it's no longer valid. A category 1 medical doesn't become a category 3 medical. It's still a category 1 medical, but, as the text you quote makes clear, after its expiry can be used to exercise a CPL or ATPL for PPL privileges only, during the longer validity period of a category 3 medical.

PJ is asking about a different situation: going to his CAME and getting a category 3 medical. That doesn't validate a CPL or ATPL: refer to the paragraphs (c) of the regulations you took the time to quote.

A category 3 medical is good for a PPL or PP-R. You can't exercise any privileges of a CPL or ATPL at all, if your medical is a category 3.
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Last edited by photofly on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Kaykay »

If that's the case then I misunderstood what situation PJ was asking about. If it's a situation where you are unable to get a cat 1 and just want to have a cat 3 to be able to fly recreationally, then I could maybe see TC making you drop to a PPL permanently but at that point again I'd suggest asking them directly.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Panama Jack »

OK, you guys kinda understand my question. I imagine this isn't the first time it has happened but let me try to illustrate:

A Commercial or ATP holder decides that he won't be doing any more commercial flying in the foreseeable future, only privately. He decides to get a Class 3 since this is the grade of license for private flying.

If, what some posters are suggesting, the pilot then decides he will return to commercial flying and gets a Class 1 what happens if his license drops "permanently" to a PPL as suggested. Seems unrealistic, and draconian.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Loner »

It makes no sense.
Taking advantage of a longer period to have a medical by renewing cat 1 that automatically reverts to cat 3 after a year instead of having to renew more often a cat 3.
In any event, you only loose you ATPL or CPL privileges until the day you get a cat 1 again. Licence doesn’t “drop” permanently. You’re just obligated to meet Cat 1 as well as all necessary currencies etc to be legal again to exercise the privileges of your licence.
You’re thinking too hard
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by jschnurr »

I see what PJ is asking...
• A CPL is maintained by a valid Cat 1 (see CARS reference above).
• The holder of a commercial pilot licence or an airline transport pilot licence may exercise the privileges of a private pilot licence until the end of the applicable validity period for the private pilot licence CARS 404.04 (6.3)
• A PPL is maintained by a valid Cat 1 or 3. CARS 421.26 2b

The question seems to be if a Cat 3 will validate a CPL if the holder only wishes to exercise PPL privileges.

However, it seems that CAR 404.10 is clear:
404.10 (1) A Category 1 medical certificate is required for the following licences:
(a) commercial pilot licence — aeroplane or helicopter;
Therefore, it seems that a holder of a CPL is required to have a Cat 1, even though he only wishes to exercise PPL.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Panama Jack »

You got it jschnurr.

So what happens if a guy decides he wants to only go for a Cat 3 (after all, if you are only going to go for private flying why go through the more stringent medical?) Does he get a new sticker with a Private License? What happens if he decides, after a few years, that he needs a Commercial or ATP again? Does a Cat 1 Medical automatically trigger the issuance of his old license grade?

In the US this seems to be a lot more strait forward-- the medical determines what level of privileges you can exercise regardless of the grade of your certificate. For example, some guys with ATP retire and they fly on Sport Private privileges on their Drivers License, even though they still maintain their own plastic card. Not everyone with a Commercial or ATP does professional flying, but that doesn't mean they don't want to give up the option of returning to it some day.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by photofly »

Panama Jack wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:11 pm You got it jschnurr.

So what happens if a guy decides he wants to only go for a Cat 3
Then he can't fly. At all. Unless he writes to TC and says he wants permanently to downgrade his licence. A Cat 3 medical doesn't validate his CPL or ATPL licence, for any kind of flying. It's very simple.
after all, if you are only going to go for private flying why go through the more stringent
Because that's what you need, if you hold a CPL or ATPL.

I don't see why this is contentious.
) Does he get a new sticker with a Private License?
If he elects permanently to downgrade, yes.
what happens if he decides, after a few years, that he needs a Commercial or ATP again?
If he permanently downgraded to a PPL then he needs to get a category 1 medical, sit the written exams and take the CPL flight test again. He needs to meet the same criteria as anyone getting a CPL or ATPL for the first time.
Does a Cat 1 Medical automatically trigger the issuance of his old license grade?
No, of course not.

The whole medical thing is not pick and choose at your convenience, according to what kind of flying you want to do that week.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

[quoteIf he permanently downgraded to a PPL then he needs to get a category 1 medical, sit the written exams and take the CPL flight test again. He needs to meet the same criteria as anyone getting a CPL or ATPL for the first time.][/quote]

I do not believe this is a correct statement. He or she isn't getting a CPL/ATPL for the first time they did that when they applied for the original license.

If they downgraded to a Class 3 Medical then TC will downgrade their license because as was pointed out your ADB has to say "Class 1" medical for you to hold a CPL/ATPL. You don't necessarily have to have the ability to exercises the privileges of the higher license by virtue of the time elapsed since your last medical but you still have to have a Class 1 showing in your ADB.

If You did downgrade to PPL and then wanted your CPL/ATPL back you would have to get a new Class 1 Medical and then apply for your CPL/ATPL to again be recorded in your ADB.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

" If he permanently downgraded to a PPL then he needs to get a category 1 medical, sit the written exams and take the CPL flight test again. He needs to meet the same criteria as anyone getting a CPL or ATPL for the first time "

I do not believe this is a correct statement. He or she isn't getting a CPL/ATPL for the first time they did that when they applied for the original license.

If they downgraded to a Class 3 Medical then TC will downgrade their license because as was pointed out your ADB has to say "Class 1" medical for you to hold a CPL/ATPL. You don't necessarily have to have the ability to exercises the privileges of the higher license by virtue of the time elapsed since your last medical but you still have to have a Class 1 showing in your ADB.

If You did downgrade to PPL and then wanted your CPL/ATPL back you would have to get a new Class 1 Medical and then apply for your CPL/ATPL to again be recorded in your ADB
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by photofly »

I had someone elect to downgrade because they held a historic CPL and wanted to do a CAR424(?) review to meet the recency requirement, but only be held to PPL standards.

That was what I believe TC explained the process to recover the CPL at a later date would be: he would have to meet the full requirements, i.e. Within the last 12 months have passed the flight test, etc. Obviously the experience and ground school requirements would already have been met the first time, and not having any time limit would carry over.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by ahramin »

A commercial licence is also a private licence.
Division VII — Commercial Pilot Licence
Aeroplanes — Privileges and Requirements
[SOR/2006-352, s. 8]
401.30 (1) Subject to subsection (3), the holder of a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane may, by day or night,

(a) exercise the privileges of a private pilot licence — aeroplane;
Some people here seem to be under the impression that if you don't have a cat 1 medical, your commercial licence explodes in flames that very second. Actually if you have a commercial licence with no medical what you have is ... a commercial licence. You still have the licence, you're still a commercial pilot, but you cannot exercise the privileges that require a cat 1 medical.

If you have a cat 3 medical, then you can exercise the privileges of a ppl.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by ahramin »

TC will certainly not downgrade a commercial licence to a PPL if you go do a cat 3 medical. They'll simply send you a cat 3 sticker for your commercial licence.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by photofly »

The holder of a CPL can exercise PPL privileges, but doesn’t hold a PPL.
ahramin wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:47 pm If you have a cat 3 medical, then you can exercise the privileges of a ppl.
Explicitly not true, as stated in the regulations.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Panama Jack »

photofly wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:49 pm
Panama Jack wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:11 pm You got it jschnurr.

So what happens if a guy decides he wants to only go for a Cat 3
Then he can't fly. At all. Unless he writes to TC and says he wants permanently to downgrade his licence. A Cat 3 medical doesn't validate his CPL or ATPL licence, for any kind of flying. It's very simple.
after all, if you are only going to go for private flying why go through the more stringent
Because that's what you need, if you hold a CPL or ATPL.

I don't see why this is contentious.
) Does he get a new sticker with a Private License?
If he elects permanently to downgrade, yes.
what happens if he decides, after a few years, that he needs a Commercial or ATP again?
If he permanently downgraded to a PPL then he needs to get a category 1 medical, sit the written exams and take the CPL flight test again. He needs to meet the same criteria as anyone getting a CPL or ATPL for the first time.
Does a Cat 1 Medical automatically trigger the issuance of his old license grade?
No, of course not.

The whole medical thing is not pick and choose at your convenience, according to what kind of flying you want to do that week.
Wow,

I guess we see the world through different lenses, photofly.

And no, I don't mean "what kind of flying you want to do that week." I mean what kind of flying you want to do over the period of validity of your medical. When you go for any Category 1 medical they are not trying to ascertain whether you will meet Category 1 Medical standards until age 60 or age 65. They are trying to see if you meet it on that day, and are unlikely to become medically incapacitated over the period of validity of your medical.

When your Category 1 medical validity runs out, you can still fly on it up until the Category 3 and 4 validity periods, depending on what type of flying you plan to do. Any before anybody tries to tear of my head, no I never said the medical "downgrades". It doesn't. You just aren't exercising Category 1 privileges if you are flying privately or ultralights after the Category 1 date runs out.

So then, from a point of logic (if not regulations), what exactly would be the problem with going for a Category 3 if you don't plan on using your license professionally in the foreseeable future. I know of people who have let their medical totally lapse (more than 5 years since last medical) and then just go and get a Category 1 and the ATP was still there. So what would be wrong with if they decided to get a Category 3 because they don't expect to do any commercial flying over the next few years?
TC will certainly not downgrade a commercial licence to a PPL if you go do a cat 3 medical. They'll simply send you a cat 3 sticker for your commercial licence.
Ahramin- do you know of a person who has done this and that was the outcome?
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Kaykay »

Maybe I am wrong, but I've always understood it to be that when you possess a CPL or ATPL, you must have a cat 1 medical to exercise those privileges but you can still exercise the privileges of a PPL if you have a cat 3. So my assumption would be that if you went and got a cat 3 medical, TC would send you a cat 3 sticker and if you were found to be flying commercially like that, you'd be in violation but if flying recreationally then you're in compliance. After sitting on it for a day I just can't see TC doing a "downgrade." Makes more sense to me to just have the pilot allowed to exercise the privileges of whatever combination of license and medical they hold. But again, I think OP's best bet is to ask TC directly. That's really the only way to get a safe answer since we obviously don't have a general consensus here ;)
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by ahramin »

Panama I can put you in touch with at least a dozen retired commercial and airline pilots that are doing Cat 3 medicals to maintain the ppl privileges of thier commercial or ATP licences.
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Re: Commercial or ATP License with Category 3 Medical

Post by Panama Jack »

Great, thanks Ahramin. All I really wanted was real life examples. No need to contact.
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