And have their ATPL when they get out even though they most definitely have less than 1000hrs.
Where to begin
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- TheRealMcCoy
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Re: Where to begin
- confusedalot
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Re: Where to begin
I second the above post.
Never been in the military but have known enough guys to know that they have very little time (when starting out) all the while operating either complicated, high performance, or big equipment. Not that it really matters though. Stating the obvious, the job gets done.
Also done enough expat work and worked with other expats to clearly indicate that logbook hours can be very low indeed in comparison to what, or shall I say used to be, encountered in canada.
The cliché about needing space shuttle time on floats to get an eventually very high paying job are over.
Before the flame throwers are deployed, take note that this comes from and old guy who needed to do things the hard way with tons of hours. Times have changed. Big time.
Never been in the military but have known enough guys to know that they have very little time (when starting out) all the while operating either complicated, high performance, or big equipment. Not that it really matters though. Stating the obvious, the job gets done.
Also done enough expat work and worked with other expats to clearly indicate that logbook hours can be very low indeed in comparison to what, or shall I say used to be, encountered in canada.
The cliché about needing space shuttle time on floats to get an eventually very high paying job are over.
Before the flame throwers are deployed, take note that this comes from and old guy who needed to do things the hard way with tons of hours. Times have changed. Big time.
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: Where to begin
Well, I was in the military and know very well how they train and what low time pilots are capable of given that kind of training.
Airlines do not provide that kind of training.
TheRealMcCoy
When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL licensing requirements. Could you please show me where they do now?
Airlines do not provide that kind of training.
TheRealMcCoy
When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL licensing requirements. Could you please show me where they do now?
Re: Where to begin
The cost is enormous and not without a measure of risk unacceptable in a civilian passenger operation.
- Old fella
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Re: Where to begin
Where’s Pelmet, when Rockie chimes in with his numerous post on any subject ole Pelmet is right behind him like a goat in heat.
Re: Where to begin
Not really. Only if inaccurate stuff is said on a subject that particularly interests me which this one does not.
In reality, the ones who really go after the particular mentioned poster are on the other forum....
One can read a current thread over there or do a search of the name for plenty of comments. I have not taken part in these conversations though.
Last edited by pelmet on Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to begin
Bahahah I think the dude (or girl) forgot a 0 at the end of those numbers...good laugh.
Re: Where to begin
Not a chance. TC is very prescriptive and surprisingly thorough when granting equivalencies for military flying time.TheRealMcCoy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:17 pmAnd have their ATPL when they get out even though they most definitely have less than 1000hrs.
I don’t know the foreign airline training regimen but with European cadet programs putting 250hr pilots right seat on big jets and maintaining a pretty solid safety record they must be doing something right?
India sounds scary....
Re: Where to begin
From CARs Standard 421Rockie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:06 pm Well, I was in the military and know very well how they train and what low time pilots are capable of given that kind of training.
Airlines do not provide that kind of training.
TheRealMcCoy
When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL licensing requirements. Could you please show me where they do now?
(7) Credits for DND Applicants
Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who hold a Canadian Forces Instrument Rating (unrestricted) in a multi-engined aeroplane (Group 1) shall be deemed to have met the skill requirement.
Re: Where to begin
That’s for issuance of a group 1 instrument rating based on an unrestricted CF rating B208. Look above that for required experience.
Re: Where to begin
Dude, you disappoint...
Here is the entire section of the CARs.
DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of twenty-one years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness
(amended 2007/12/30)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.
(amended 2007/12/30)
(c) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30)
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 70% in each of three written examinations on the following aviation subjects:
(a) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation and Flight Planning (SAMRA) including: (i) general system of weather collection and dissemination,
(ii) weather map, weather forecast, weather abbreviations, symbols and nomenclature,
(iii) pressure systems and their association with fronts, cloud forms and icing conditions,
(iv) the movement of upper winds and their effect on aircraft operations,
(v) weather service circulars and instructions for air route meteorological service which are pertinent to aircraft operations, and
(vi) radio communication procedures relating to aircraft operation; and
(b) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and Navigation General (SARON) including: (i) basic principles of air navigation such as formulae, instruments and other navigational aids which are commonly used in the navigation of aircraft,
(ii) basic principles of loading and weight distribution and their effect on flight characteristics,
(iii) Canadian Aviation Regulations, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures, Information Circulars and NOTAM, and
(iv) human factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(c) Instrument Rating (INRAT).
(4) Experience
An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01)
(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;
(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01)
(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(5) Skill
(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01) (i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence.
(amended 2005/06/01)
(6) Credits - Experience
(a) Glider
Where an applicant holds a Pilot Licence - Glider, a maximum of 50 hours flight time in gliders shall be credited towards the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(b) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplanes
Where an applicant holds a Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane, a Recreational Pilot Permit – Aeroplane, a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane or a Commercial Pilot Licence – Aeroplane, a maximum of 50 hours flight time in three axis ultra-light aeroplanes shall be credited towards the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(amended 2005/06/01)
(7) Credits for DND Applicants
Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who hold a Canadian Forces Instrument Rating (unrestricted) in a multi-engined aeroplane (Group 1) shall be deemed to have met the skill requirement.
Re: Where to begin
And you are always exactly what I expect.
Read section 7 again and note the last part where it says "deemed to have met the skill requirement".
Now read section 5 labelled "Skill".
Now read section 4 labelled "Experience".
Read all of it very carefully, and show me where DND applicants are granted credits for experience.
And those aren't the CAR's, you are quoting the Standard (CASS). Learn the difference and then learn how to read them.
Last edited by Rockie on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where to begin
It says they are deemed to meet the skill requirement, not the experience requirement.
Re: Where to begin
I never said it did, but you never referenced experience either.Read all of it very carefully, and show me where DND applicants are granted credits for experience.
Let me refresh your memory as to what you said dude:
You stated that TC gave no credit for military training. That is incorrect, as has been demonstrated and acknowledged by you. I spoke to the statement you made. If I might make a suggestion, you should endeavor to be more precise in your statements in the future. For example, I think that you meant, "When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL experience requirements".
Re: Where to begin
The post I was responding to was post #28 from TheRealMcCoy saying military members get out with their ATPL with less than 1000 hours. Look it up.
Plus just what did you think I was referring to when I said "not even a minute"? Does that not sound like flying time, ie "experience"?
Look I know you hate me and can't wait for any excuse to argue, but you're just making yourself look silly with this.
Plus just what did you think I was referring to when I said "not even a minute"? Does that not sound like flying time, ie "experience"?
Look I know you hate me and can't wait for any excuse to argue, but you're just making yourself look silly with this.
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Re: Where to begin
Darn, looks like he's deleted his posts. I was looking for some entertainment
Re: Where to begin
Dude,Rockie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:41 am The post I was responding to was post #28 from TheRealMcCoy saying military members get out with their ATPL with less than 1000 hours. Look it up.
Plus just what did you think I was referring to when I said "not even a minute"? Does that not sound like flying time, ie "experience"?
Look I know you hate me and can't wait for any excuse to argue, but you're just making yourself look silly with this.
Again, I responded to what you wrote. In future, if you express yourself more clearly you can avoid misunderstandings like this.
For the record, I don't hate you. On the contrary, whenever I think of you I smile. Your dogged determination to always have the last word is entertaining and provides a welcome distraction from an otherwise dreary day. Don't ever change.
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Re: Where to begin
The above is incorrect - PICUS works exactly as I've described it in my previous post. It's simply a faster way for FO to obtain an ATPL - it's not the same as PIC and is not logged as PIC.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Re: Where to begin
Dont know the specifics of transport canada, but it all depends on the authority. FAA PICUS is different from EASA which is different from CASA etc.
For instance on an FAA type rating in some cases you can't become PIC without 25 hours PICUs sitting in the left seat with a training captain on the right. This IS logged as PIC.
Flying in Australia, upgrade line training was logged as PICUS.
With EASA it can depend on the operating approvals given to the AOC
So, as usual in Aviation no absolutes. Every authority applies it in a different way.
Can you point me to the regs supporting your argument?
For instance on an FAA type rating in some cases you can't become PIC without 25 hours PICUs sitting in the left seat with a training captain on the right. This IS logged as PIC.
Flying in Australia, upgrade line training was logged as PICUS.
With EASA it can depend on the operating approvals given to the AOC
So, as usual in Aviation no absolutes. Every authority applies it in a different way.
Can you point me to the regs supporting your argument?