Where to begin

[777 Driver]

How to recover from stall??!

[Bahd]

Where is that Keith D'Mello guy when you need him?! 777 Driver needs a Canadian mentor!

[B208]

Look at the hours again B208. If you still think the same I reiterate my offer for that land on Mars.

I reiterate my advice that you hold onto that land........

[TT1900]

I guess by PIC the poster means PIC under supervision.

Not the same as actual PIC - just a way to get the ATPL faster.

Where in the world do they put 200 hour pilots in the right seat of a 330, then into the left seat at 1250 under supervision or not? Tell me now so I can avoid the place.

Our Airforce. Its a 310 instead of a 330; close enough. And most don’t even have 200hrs when they start. Upgraded to AC by 1200hrs, absolutely.

[TT1900]

Where is that Keith D'Mello guy when you need him?! 777 Driver needs a Canadian mentor!

Lol. I miss Keith. Fun way to kill some time.

[TheRealMcCoy]

Our Airforce. Its a 310 instead of a 330; close enough. And most don’t even have 200hrs when they start. Upgraded to AC by 1200hrs, absolutely.

And have their ATPL when they get out even though they most definitely have less than 1000hrs.

[confusedalot]

I second the above post.

Never been in the military but have known enough guys to know that they have very little time (when starting out) all the while operating either complicated, high performance, or big equipment. Not that it really matters though. Stating the obvious, the job gets done.

Also done enough expat work and worked with other expats to clearly indicate that logbook hours can be very low indeed in comparison to what, or shall I say used to be, encountered in canada.

The cliché about needing space shuttle time on floats to get an eventually very high paying job are over.

Before the flame throwers are deployed, take note that this comes from and old guy who needed to do things the hard way with tons of hours. Times have changed. Big time.

[Rockie]

Well, I was in the military and know very well how they train and what low time pilots are capable of given that kind of training.

Airlines do not provide that kind of training.

TheRealMcCoy

When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL licensing requirements. Could you please show me where they do now?

[lownslow]

Airlines do not provide that kind of training

...yet.

[Rockie]

Airlines do not provide that kind of training

...yet.

The cost is enormous and not without a measure of risk unacceptable in a civilian passenger operation.

[Old fella]

Where’s Pelmet, when Rockie chimes in with his numerous post on any subject ole Pelmet is right behind him like a goat in heat.

[pelmet]

Where’s Pelmet, when Rockie chimes in with his numerous post on any subject ole Pelmet is right behind him like a goat in heat.

Not really. Only if inaccurate stuff is said on a subject that particularly interests me which this one does not.

In reality, the ones who really go after the particular mentioned poster are on the other forum....

One can read a current thread over there or do a search of the name for plenty of comments. I have not taken part in these conversations though.

[FOD_Vacuum]

Bahahah I think the dude (or girl) forgot a 0 at the end of those numbers...good laugh.

[TT1900]

Our Airforce. Its a 310 instead of a 330; close enough. And most don’t even have 200hrs when they start. Upgraded to AC by 1200hrs, absolutely.

And have their ATPL when they get out even though they most definitely have less than 1000hrs.

Not a chance. TC is very prescriptive and surprisingly thorough when granting equivalencies for military flying time.

I don’t know the foreign airline training regimen but with European cadet programs putting 250hr pilots right seat on big jets and maintaining a pretty solid safety record they must be doing something right?

India sounds scary....

[B208]

Well, I was in the military and know very well how they train and what low time pilots are capable of given that kind of training.

Airlines do not provide that kind of training.

TheRealMcCoy

When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL licensing requirements. Could you please show me where they do now?

From CARs Standard 421

(7) Credits for DND Applicants

Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who hold a Canadian Forces Instrument Rating (unrestricted) in a multi-engined aeroplane (Group 1) shall be deemed to have met the skill requirement.

[Rockie]

That’s for issuance of a group 1 instrument rating based on an unrestricted CF rating B208. Look above that for required experience.

[B208]

That’s for issuance of a group 1 instrument rating based on an unrestricted CF rating B208. Look above that for required experience.

Dude, you disappoint...

Here is the entire section of the CARs.

DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(1) Age

An applicant shall be a minimum of twenty-one years of age.

(2) Medical Fitness

(amended 2007/12/30)
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(b) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.
(amended 2007/12/30)
(c) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.
(amended 2007/12/30)

(3) Knowledge

An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 70% in each of three written examinations on the following aviation subjects:
(a) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation and Flight Planning (SAMRA) including: (i) general system of weather collection and dissemination,
(ii) weather map, weather forecast, weather abbreviations, symbols and nomenclature,
(iii) pressure systems and their association with fronts, cloud forms and icing conditions,
(iv) the movement of upper winds and their effect on aircraft operations,
(v) weather service circulars and instructions for air route meteorological service which are pertinent to aircraft operations, and
(vi) radio communication procedures relating to aircraft operation; and

(b) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and Navigation General (SARON) including: (i) basic principles of air navigation such as formulae, instruments and other navigational aids which are commonly used in the navigation of aircraft,
(ii) basic principles of loading and weight distribution and their effect on flight characteristics,
(iii) Canadian Aviation Regulations, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures, Information Circulars and NOTAM, and
(iv) human factors, including pilot decision-making; and

(c) Instrument Rating (INRAT).

(4) Experience

An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01)
(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;
(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01)
(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.

(5) Skill
(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01) (i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence.
(amended 2005/06/01)

(6) Credits - Experience
(a) Glider
Where an applicant holds a Pilot Licence - Glider, a maximum of 50 hours flight time in gliders shall be credited towards the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.

(b) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplanes
Where an applicant holds a Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane, a Recreational Pilot Permit – Aeroplane, a Private Pilot Licence – Aeroplane or a Commercial Pilot Licence – Aeroplane, a maximum of 50 hours flight time in three axis ultra-light aeroplanes shall be credited towards the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(amended 2005/06/01)


(7) Credits for DND Applicants

Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who hold a Canadian Forces Instrument Rating (unrestricted) in a multi-engined aeroplane (Group 1) shall be deemed to have met the skill requirement.

[Rockie]

Dude, you disappoint...

And you are always exactly what I expect.

Read section 7 again and note the last part where it says "deemed to have met the skill requirement".

Now read section 5 labelled "Skill".

Now read section 4 labelled "Experience".

Read all of it very carefully, and show me where DND applicants are granted credits for experience.


And those aren't the CAR's, you are quoting the Standard (CASS). Learn the difference and then learn how to read them.

[shimmydampner]

It says they are deemed to meet the skill requirement, not the experience requirement.

[B208]

Read all of it very carefully, and show me where DND applicants are granted credits for experience.

I never said it did, but you never referenced experience either.

Let me refresh your memory as to what you said dude:

When I got out Transport Canada gave no let -...for ATPL Licensing Requirements"

You stated that TC gave no credit for military training. That is incorrect, as has been demonstrated and acknowledged by you. I spoke to the statement you made. If I might make a suggestion, you should endeavor to be more precise in your statements in the future. For example, I think that you meant, "When I got out Transport Canada gave no let - not even one minute’s worth - to military pilots when it came to ATPL experience requirements".