Going to airlines without PIC time

[Lightchop]

Lightchop, do you have any PIC time?

I went to the regionals with an ATPL and approx 1000 MPIC, but it was a different time. I'm currently a Captain.

Given the upgrades have slowed, I would recommend to anyone to get your foot in the door. Spend those two years waiting for the upgrade learning as much as you can from all the Captains you'll be flying with, and if you need PIC time to get your ATPL.. find a jump job or take an LOA for a summer to flog a Ho if you really want to. AFTER you have your number.

A few FOs at Jazz are on LOAs right now flying in the Yukon and NWT as Captains.

[Lightchop]

Even if you had to pay 5k for rentals

That is somehow the saddest advice I've ever heard on here. A professional should be paid for their talents wherever possible, not shell out.

A professional gets paid for the seat they sit in. If you need PIC time to get an ATPL to get that seat then go out and get it, don't fall on some ficticious sword of pride.

Agreed.

If it was even 5 years ago I would have had a different opinion but with the way the industry is right now I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone to skip as much 703/704 as possible.

IF the airlines are your ultimate goal.

When you're 45 and a widebody Captain you'll be thankful you did so.

[mixturerich]

Ideally get enough PIC time for the ATPL, but you should absolutely not delay getting to the airlines, because as many have repeated, seniority is everything. Even if that means going without any.

It isn’t “everything” though. If you don’t have an ATPL, your seniority means dick when your number comes up for an upgrade.

It never means dick in the long run. Seniority can determine whether you even see the opportunity at all.

[Lightchop]

I'm sure if you really tried you could save a few bucks here and there and find cheap block time.

"Hi. I'm an FO at an airline -- so I'm an awesome pilot -- but really need some cheap PIC time.
Can I get some cheap block on your brand new $700K SR 22"?

Let me know how that works out. Block time isn't exactly offered on street corners, for a reason.

Pal, you can find cheap block time all over. There's a guy in ZBB renting time out on a 152 for dirt cheap.

[goleafsgo]

I'm sure if you really tried you could save a few bucks here and there and find cheap block time.

"Hi. I'm an FO at an airline -- so I'm an awesome pilot -- but really need some cheap PIC time.
Can I get some cheap block on your brand new $700K SR 22"?

Let me know how that works out. Block time isn't exactly offered on street corners, for a reason.

Pal, you can find cheap block time all over. There's a guy in ZBB renting time out on a 152 for dirt cheap.

Because bombing around in a 152 in the circuit gives someone good decision making for an airline

[Lightchop]

"Hi. I'm an FO at an airline -- so I'm an awesome pilot -- but really need some cheap PIC time.
Can I get some cheap block on your brand new $700K SR 22"?

Let me know how that works out. Block time isn't exactly offered on street corners, for a reason.

Pal, you can find cheap block time all over. There's a guy in ZBB renting time out on a 152 for dirt cheap.

Because bombing around in a 152 in the circuit gives someone good decision making for an airline

And being a Navajo Captain for 3 months does? Maybe a bit.. But let's not pretend that's what will make you a good Captain. I learned more from the Captains I flew with at the regional level than I did flying the same milk run most of the time VFR 703 flights I did for two years.

[ant_321]

I would agree that it's all about the seniority number. With that said I'm happy I had previous PIC time. As an FO on the 737 I didn't really feel like my 1900 capt time was much of an asset. Once I got to the left seat that previous captain experience became much more relavent. I'm glad my first job where I was calling the shots and learning how to be a captain was in the 704 world. Not with 194 other people in the back.

[172_Captain]

Even if you had to pay 5k for rentals if you can hold it already...

Seriously? Put that right up there with guys and gals breaking their bonds after 6 months to get that seniority number. Call me old fashioned but I stopped paying for flights when I left flight school.

I’ve been employed at my 703 for 2 years now, Captain for 1.5 years. I honestly have no immediate plans to leave. I love my job. Company is great, aircraft are awesome, and the pay is above standard. The experience I’ve gained and continue to gain is invaluable. Life’s a journey. There’s more to flying then a fucking seniority number. I can’t stand flying with newbies who have 500 hours and they’re already talking about breaking their bonds first chance they have to move on, as if they’ve had it so rough. Chillax, the airlines will still be there. Most of these guys and gals are in such a hurry they can’t possible spare 2 years, despite the fact they’re staring down the barrel of 25+ years at the airlines, more then enough to get their fill.

Seniority is BS. There’ll always be people ahead and behind you. Who cares.

[FOD_Vacuum]

Agree with last post ^ fly there for a couple years and pay back some debt from flight school, you will be way better off in the long run instead of going straight to regionals with piss poor pay, unable to even start chipping away at those debt repayments. That’s what I did. I am debt free because I decided to stay up North for a couple of years and have zero regret. Love the experience I gained and have many hours turbine pic in the books. Saw some crazy things and traveled the world too. Now on to airlines!

[ant_321]

Even if you had to pay 5k for rentals if you can hold it already...

Seriously? Put that right up there with guys and gals breaking their bonds after 6 months to get that seniority number. Call me old fashioned but I stopped paying for flights when I left flight school.

I’ve been employed at my 703 for 2 years now, Captain for 1.5 years. I honestly have no immediate plans to leave. I love my job. Company is great, aircraft are awesome, and the pay is above standard. The experience I’ve gained and continue to gain is invaluable. Life’s a journey. There’s more to flying then a fucking seniority number. I can’t stand flying with newbies who have 500 hours and they’re already talking about breaking their bonds first chance they have to move on, as if they’ve had it so rough. Chillax, the airlines will still be there. Most of these guys and gals are in such a hurry they can’t possible spare 2 years, despite the fact they’re staring down the barrel of 25+ years at the airlines, more then enough to get their fill.

Seniority is BS. There’ll always be people ahead and begins you. Who cares.

I understand where your coming from but don't necessarily agree. Sure the airlines will still be there in a couple years but will they still be hiring? I'm not saying it's a race to the airlines but I certainly don't fault anyone on trying to get there quickly if the airlines are your goal. 1 seniority number could mean the difference in years for an upgrade in some circumstances. I personally know 2 guys who decided to wait a little longer at there job before making the jump and it set them back greatly. One put off going to Jazz by 6 months to get some PIC time. Missed out on PML 1.0 and the old contract because of it. Another at another airline asked to start in next ground school because his company wanted 6 weeks notice. Ended up being the most senior FO for 3 years because there were no upgrades.

[Lightchop]

Seniority is BS. There’ll always be people ahead and behind you. Who cares.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But it's certainly not BS.

Sure there will always be people ahead of you and below you.

Where your number will matter is when layoffs happen or the industry slows, and that guy who is six months Sr to you ends up being your Captain for the next decade while you're sitting in the right seat.

It's even started to happen again. I got upgraded at a year and a half at Jazz. I've been grazing the bottom of the list for the last year. Now upgrades have slowed and someone hired even a month after me is still sitting in the right seat and might be for a while.

Keep in mind, I did my time in 703. I'm not some instructor or college hire. And when I was hired at Jazz you NEEDED 1500 hours, an ATPL and 500MPIC. Given how things have changed, I'd say get your 1000 hours in the right seat of a king air and move on.

And if you're stuck with a bond, you have no one to blame but yourself for signing it. I've never been bonded, and if I was I would have had zero issues breaking it and paying my way out if it meant a seniority number 6-12 months sooner.

To each their own.

[atphat]

Seniority is BS. There’ll always be people ahead and behind you. Who cares.

Yes. That quote is completely ignorant of how airline ops work. But who cares is right. It doesn't matter what he thinks.

[mixturerich]

It’s easy to be young and naive in thinking that the airlines “will always be there”. Or trolling otherwise. That’s what invalidates peoples internet arguments - you can never ever truly know if the other person is trolling or not. Best not to engage.

[The Tenth Man]

Even if you had to pay 5k for rentals if you can hold it already...

Seriously? Put that right up there with guys and gals breaking their bonds after 6 months to get that seniority number. Call me old fashioned but I stopped paying for flights when I left flight school.

I’ve been employed at my 703 for 2 years now, Captain for 1.5 years. I honestly have no immediate plans to leave. I love my job. Company is great, aircraft are awesome, and the pay is above standard. The experience I’ve gained and continue to gain is invaluable. Life’s a journey. There’s more to flying then a fucking seniority number. I can’t stand flying with newbies who have 500 hours and they’re already talking about breaking their bonds first chance they have to move on, as if they’ve had it so rough. Chillax, the airlines will still be there. Most of these guys and gals are in such a hurry they can’t possible spare 2 years, despite the fact they’re staring down the barrel of 25+ years at the airlines, more then enough to get their fill.

Seniority is BS. There’ll always be people ahead and begins you. Who cares.

I understand where your coming from but don't necessarily agree. Sure the airlines will still be there in a couple years but will they still be hiring? I'm not saying it's a race to the airlines but I certainly don't fault anyone on trying to get there quickly if the airlines are your goal. 1 seniority number could mean the difference in years for an upgrade in some circumstances. I personally know 2 guys who decided to wait a little longer at there job before making the jump and it set them back greatly. One put off going to Jazz by 6 months to get some PIC time. Missed out on PML 1.0 and the old contract because of it. Another at another airline asked to start in next ground school because his company wanted 6 weeks notice. Ended up being the most senior FO for 3 years because there were no upgrades.

It would seem that some think that seniority at an airline is important. I'd agree.

[shimmydampner]

Where your number will matter is when layoffs happen or the industry slows, and that guy who is six months Sr to you ends up being your Captain for the next decade while you're sitting in the right seat.

OR... you get laid off anyways and you have nothing to fall back on because you'll be competing for jobs with guys who DO have command time and possibly time on types you'll be looking to fly.
I get that seniority is important, particularly in the airline world. But perhaps not at the expense of developing a well rounded resume. There's still something to be said for diversifying one's self professionally. To suggest that the lessons and skills learned flying smaller aircraft as pilot in command (if even for a little while) does not add a useful layer of depth to one's professional skill set, is short sighted and smacks of inexperience itself.
Can you go to the airlines with no PIC time? Probably. Will it come back to bite you? Probably not. You'll probably be able to skate right through a nice career, content in the knowledge that you've done the bare minimum to get a really good job. But if it does ever come back to haunt you, don't be surprised when you're working in the lumber yard at Home Depot to pay the bills.