Going to airlines without PIC time

[Station61]

Good idea ??

[BE20 Driver]

Everything I have got out of this industry has been because of PIC time. You never know when the crap will hit the fan and you might have to rely on some previous experience.
My experience will be vastly different than that of a 20 year old commercial pilot who is still wet behind the ears. Going to an airline without any PIC time was just not possible only a few years back.

[FOD_Vacuum]

Is it a good idea to go to a golf course without golf clubs? You need PIC time to get the ATPL so you can upgrade...get some real life turbine PIC experience and check out the North and get some decision making skills under your belt. I dunno, but you can probably guess my answer to your question from my sarcastic initial sentence. Unless you want to stay FO, head to airlines right away without PIC time.

[Lightchop]

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.

[fish4life]

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.

I disagree, you learn more in 2 months of being PIC of a commercial operation than you do in 2 years of sitting right seat. Right seat is good to learn from experienced people but when it’s your turn to make a decision it teaches you a lot as well. A well rounded pilot has done both

[FOD_Vacuum]

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.

No it is not fine-get some real world pilot decision making skills flying an aircraft as PIC before you get the chance to be PIC of an aircraft when paying passengers buy tickets directly from the national carriers website. I think the flying public have the right for a somewhat experienced pilot to be at the helm. And building that PIC time on the side? What, on a regional FO salary? Unless you live in moms basement, you can't afford to build another 50-100 hours in a 172...unless you want to drown more in debt. Youngsters need to stop thinking that its okay to just dash out and add another 10k debt to get those hours...its alarming what the articles say about how North American student debt has surpassed $1.5 Trillion dollars...the banks are earning crazy interest on these loans. I was flying with a co-pilot the other day and was shocked that he had $116k training debt.

Please, for the sake of your not-so-deep pockets, and for the sake of your freedom and ability to go up North, just dash out at least a year up there to get your PIC time. You will be glad you did so, followed by stories that will stick with you for life. A couple years (or I guess it is 2018, "months") will do you well in the long run. You may build more connections there too which help you in the long run get more jobs down the road.

[Rockie]

Any PIC time is beneficial especially if you’re having to consider all the factors an airline captain needs to in making their decisions. But delay an airline job to gain more than the minimum PIC time necessary?

Not for a second.

[trey kule]

Light chop wrote:

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.


Ah...well, not really. Lots and lots of pilots on the seniority list at the regionals being passed over for upgrade because they do not have an ATPL. The, get your time on the side sounds better as a soundbite, than a practical suggestion.

It is alluring to finish college and hop right into 40;years at the airlines, but acouple of years of flight experience getting PIC will be cherished time....and the “big show”. Is going to have a breathing break again...many FOs are going to become house framers again,

[mixturerich]

Ideally get enough PIC time for the ATPL, but you should absolutely not delay getting to the airlines, because as many have repeated, seniority is everything. Even if that means going without any.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Ideally get enough PIC time for the ATPL, but you should absolutely not delay getting to the airlines, because as many have repeated, seniority is everything. Even if that means going without any.

It isn’t “everything” though. If you don’t have an ATPL, your seniority means dick when your number comes up for an upgrade.

[Rockie]

Seniority in this business is the gift that keeps on giving until the day you retire. It means earlier upgrade to Captain. It means earlier move up to better paying airplanes. It means better schedule, better vacation, better quality of life. Even one number could mean the difference between getting laid off or not.

Keep moving up to better jobs as soon as you are possibly able to until you achieve the one you'll retire from. In today's climate if that means renting a C150 to get enough PIC time for your ATPL while you work at an airline then do it. It'll be worth it.

As you go though do not sit in the right seat like a turnip. Pay attention and always be asking yourself "what would I do if I were Captain?" Sooner or later you will be required to make those decisions for real so get used to thinking like it.

[Station61]

I should have clarified, I'm currently building PIC time. I just know a lot of pilots going the route without any PIC and was curious what everyone else thinks.

[lownslow]

The guys without PIC will likely be fine. They'll consider anyone who waited to build experience to be idiots for doing so and their Instagrams will reflect that in various hashtags to accompany pictures of shiny gold bars and interesting places. Planes are pretty reliable, training and testing are easy enough hoops to jump through, careers are mostly long and boring. Until they aren't, at which point the folks at the helm fall into one of two camps:

[Lightchop]

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.

No it is not fine-get some real world pilot decision making skills flying an aircraft as PIC before you get the chance to be PIC of an aircraft when paying passengers buy tickets directly from the national carriers website. I think the flying public have the right for a somewhat experienced pilot to be at the helm. And building that PIC time on the side? What, on a regional FO salary? Unless you live in moms basement, you can't afford to build another 50-100 hours in a 172...unless you want to drown more in debt. Youngsters need to stop thinking that its okay to just dash out and add another 10k debt to get those hours...its alarming what the articles say about how North American student debt has surpassed $1.5 Trillion dollars...the banks are earning crazy interest on these loans. I was flying with a co-pilot the other day and was shocked that he had $116k training debt.

Please, for the sake of your not-so-deep pockets, and for the sake of your freedom and ability to go up North, just dash out at least a year up there to get your PIC time. You will be glad you did so, followed by stories that will stick with you for life. A couple years (or I guess it is 2018, "months") will do you well in the long run. You may build more connections there too which help you in the long run get more jobs down the road.

You can easily find say a jump pilot job for a summer to build your PIC time. Lots of people have done and are currently doing that.

I flew with a number of Captains who had no PIC experience outside of a regional and they were all fine.

If you worked for say 3-5 years as a PIC before an airline then sure I can agree the experience you gain is valuable. But let's be honest most people will get minimum needed to get an ATPL and move to the airlines. That experience, which was likely 6 months in a Navajo will be relatively useless in the grand scheme of things.

I learned way more about how to be an effective Captain, decision making skills etc in my two years as an FO flying with very experienced pilots. Mind you I also made an effort to learn, asked a lot of questions etc.

[Lightchop]

Ideally get enough PIC time for the ATPL, but you should absolutely not delay getting to the airlines, because as many have repeated, seniority is everything. Even if that means going without any.

It isn’t “everything” though. If you don’t have an ATPL, your seniority means dick when your number comes up for an upgrade.

So you'd rather sit for two years working in 703 without any seniority than work at an airline where you might get passed over initially but when you do upgrade then slot into the list well above the bottom? That makes no sense

You do also know that at places like Jazz, people CHOSE to be FOs much much longer than they needed to be? I know a few recent hires at Jazz who can hold a reasonable Captain spot but don't because they enjoy their lifestyle. It's not all about how fast you can get an upgrade. Seniority is different and ask the guys at Jazz who were 6 months behind in seniority that ended up having to wait 12-15 years for that left seat after seeing many 6 month upgrades happen. Seniority matters, and most people here who say it doesn't or to go fly 703 even if you have the option to go to the regionals all likely work in 703/704 and are justifying their own decisions.

[Lightchop]

Seniority in this business is the gift that keeps on giving until the day you retire. It means earlier upgrade to Captain. It means earlier move up to better paying airplanes. It means better schedule, better vacation, better quality of life. Even one number could mean the difference between getting laid off or not.

Keep moving up to better jobs as soon as you are possibly able to until you achieve the one you'll retire from. In today's climate if that means renting a C150 to get enough PIC time for your ATPL while you work at an airline then do it. It'll be worth it.

As you go though do not sit in the right seat like a turnip. Pay attention and always be asking yourself "what would I do if I were Captain?" Sooner or later you will be required to make those decisions for real so get used to thinking like it.

Well said and I completely agree.

[Lightchop]

Yeah it's fine. Ignore the naysayers. You'll learn more in two years flying right seat at a regional (approx time for upgrades right now) than you will flying a Navajo or Cessna or whatever for like 6 months. Plus, airlines are all about seniority. If you have an ATPL (even if you don't, you can build that pic time on the side over those two years) you upgrade. If the airlines are your goal and you have the opportunity to go, go. Don't even think twice.

I disagree, you learn more in 2 months of being PIC of a commercial operation than you do in 2 years of sitting right seat. Right seat is good to learn from experienced people but when it’s your turn to make a decision it teaches you a lot as well. A well rounded pilot has done both

Well I disagree. Two months compared to two years? Really? Lol.

[goleafsgo]

Get the PIC. It was the biggest mistake I've made leaving my 703/704 operator without getting any because getting my seniority number at a regional seemed more important. The pay really doesn't allow one to just freely go out and rent a 150 when there's a family to take care of

[trey kule]

It seems t me that the FAA is not in agreement with you.

But what do they know.....

[Lightchop]

Get the PIC. It was the biggest mistake I've made leaving my 703/704 operator without getting any because getting my seniority number at a regional seemed more important. The pay really doesn't allow one to just freely go out and rent a 150 when there's a family to take care of

I'm sure if you really tried you could save a few bucks here and there and find cheap block time. Or, do what many have done before you and continue to do and work a few days a month at a drop zone. Even if you had to pay 5k for rentals if you can hold it already you'll get the upgrade and double your pay instantly... So it's up to you what your priorities are I guess.