BREEZY in Birmingham.

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rookiepilot
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BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by rookiepilot »

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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Donald
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Donald »

Go-around with the gear down?
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Eric Janson
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Eric Janson »

Don't see the rudder move at all once they cross the threshold - it's there for a reason!

Landing crabbed is poor technique imho.
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ahramin
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by ahramin »

Donald wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:26 pm Go-around with the gear down?
Maybe they forgot. There are a few MELs that require gear down for a while after takeoff but I can't think of anything that delays it on a go around.
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ahramin
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by ahramin »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 amLanding crabbed is poor technique imho.
You'd better call Airbus and Boeing right away then :lol:. I'm sure they'd want to know they're teaching poor technique.
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Longtimer »

Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.
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#3 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:52 am

Don't see the rudder move at all once they cross the threshold - it's there for a reason!

Landing crabbed is poor technique imho.
Yet most if not all major carriers train for that. Of course maybe you don't fly big aircraft.
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by pelmet »

I really don't know what most carriers train for but mine trains to crab onto final and kick out in the flare(it is especially useful for four engine, low wing types. One can land crabbed but on a dry runway it is not recommended in strong crosswinds like it appears to be that day. We had a crew try it recently though. After their large deviation from the centerline, they got some extra sim training.

Not sure about Airbus techniques though. But I have been perusing the manuals and it has some interesting systems.
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Eric Janson
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Eric Janson »

Longtimer wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:53 pm Yet most if not all major carriers train for that. Of course maybe you don't fly big aircraft.
I've never been trained at any Airline in how to do crosswind landings.

I started my career flying large tail wheel aircraft and you had to land them aligned with the runway or you'd groundloop them.

I use the same techniques that worked for tail wheel aircraft for everything I've flown since. Works just fine - the basics of flight don't change with aircraft type.

I fly A340 for a living.
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complexintentions
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by complexintentions »

ahramin wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:38 am
Eric Janson wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:52 amLanding crabbed is poor technique imho.
You'd better call Airbus and Boeing right away then :lol:. I'm sure they'd want to know they're teaching poor technique.
Can't speak to AB but Boeing does not "teach" landing crabbed. As a crosswind technique it is offered as one alternative, with the Boeing FCTM stating:
Touchdown In Crab
The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds. (See the landing crosswind guidelines table, this chapter).
On dry runways, upon touchdown the airplane tracks toward the upwind edge of the runway while de-crabbing to align with the runway. Immediate upwind aileron is needed to ensure the wings remain level while rudder is needed to track the runway centerline. The greater the amount of crab at touchdown, the larger the lateral deviation from the point of touchdown. For this reason, touchdown in a crab only condition is not recommended when landing on a dry runway in strong crosswinds.
Was this video not a strong crosswind to a dry runway? Seems to me that Boeing says quite clearly NOT to do this.

Just watch the Emirates A380 landing at DUS again to see what happens when you try to correct after touchdown instead of before. It ain't pretty.

Eric is absolutely correct - landing crabbed is a terrible technique. I assume it's offered by the manufacturer to cater to the vast majority of modern pilots who are apparently incapable of coordinated flight, so they can at least get the machine on the ground even if it means veering all over the runway.

But I hate comments that could lead new pilots to think that this is desirable.
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Meatservo »

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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by ahramin »

I would recommend you read it all again.

Airbus never recommends crab only, but rather up to 5° of crab and 5° of bank. Boeing does say crab only is ok "The airplane can land using crab only" but as has been pointed out, on dry runway does not recommend crab only. There is a difference between crab and crab only.
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by Eric Janson »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUdXJPUwm8

The 2 landings starting at 3:40 is pretty much what I do.

I would have the cockpit over towards the upwind edge of the runway to ensure the main wheels are on the centerline when I de-crab. I start feeding in the rudder s-l-o-w-l-y at 100' so that the aircraft is aligned with the runway at the flare. This allows any roll to be easily countered with small aileron inputs. Then flare and land.

The Saab guy did a nice job.
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complexintentions
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Re: BREEZY in Birmingham.

Post by complexintentions »

You mention the key - to orient oneself upwind so that when you de-crab there's allowance for the drift. I see quite a few folks fly nicely crabbed on the extended centreline but then panic a bit when they align with the runway and drift off the centre.

In very high crosswinds the view down the edge lights can be a bit unnerving but one needs to visualize where the mains will be after you de-crab.

Steady state crosswinds are fairly straightforward, strong gusty ones are a pain in the ass.
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