USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

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cdnpilot77
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USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Some people had expressed to me that they were pinning some hopes of the new NAFTA agreement would include Flight Crews in the professionals working visa exemption. The new agreement was published this morning and doesn’t not seem to have any material change in that regard. Congress has 60 days to review and recommend changes, so I suspect the airline industry will be lobbying for it, but I doubt this will be included in the final draft for Gump....I mean Trump....to sign.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Meatservo »

Do proponents of this see it as an advantage for the industry in Canada? For pilots, or for corporations or both? What is the situation like for low-time pilots in the United States? I find myself not being able to imagine what it would be like. With "Jazz" and "Encore" snapping up lower and lower-time candidates here in Canada, jobs are kind of a "pilot's market" presently. I haven't seen this manifest itself in the form of higher wages for low-time flight crew members. How will the sudden availability of job-hungry newbies from the States affect things? Or the sudden availability of low-paying entry-level American jobs? Are the smaller carriers in the States having the same trouble retaining pilots? It would be interesting to see what would happen. I always naively imagined that a "pilot shortage" would mean better wages for low-timers. It's been so long since I had to look for work, I don't even know what it's like out here anymore. I can't figure out if I should support or oppose what you're suggesting.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by digits_ »

Meatservo wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:21 am Do proponents of this see it as an advantage for the industry in Canada? For pilots, or for corporations or both? What is the situation like for low-time pilots in the United States? I find myself not being able to imagine what it would be like. With "Jazz" and "Encore" snapping up lower and lower-time candidates here in Canada, jobs are kind of a "pilot's market" presently. I haven't seen this manifest itself in the form of higher wages for low-time flight crew members. How will the sudden availability of job-hungry newbies from the States affect things? Or the sudden availability of low-paying entry-level American jobs? Are the smaller carriers in the States having the same trouble retaining pilots? It would be interesting to see what would happen. I always naively imagined that a "pilot shortage" would mean better wages for low-timers. It's been so long since I had to look for work, I don't even know what it's like out here anymore. I can't figure out if I should support or oppose what you're suggesting.
It would be great for Canadian pilots, especially those with ATPL experience, as they would get hired at US regionals for higher wages right away. You are right though that it might be less beneficial for people with less than 500 hours, as there are still a lot of applicants trying to make the jump from 250 to 500 hours. If you throw US pilots in the mix there, all trying to get 1500 hours for an ATPL, it might get trickiers.

Overall it would have a positive influence on Canadian aviation wages and benefits. I don't think Canadian operators would like it, but US operators and Canadian pilots would probably love it.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Meatservo »

Do the U.S. regionals pay better? Perhaps since they changed a few rules in the wake of the Colgan Air crash? You always read in the American news how poor the working conditions are in the States; I assumed it had to be at least a bit better here. I hardly have my finger on the pulse of the industry though. It would be weird after all these years to find myself sitting next to a young American. I've flown with Aussies and British and an assortment of people from the E.U. but never an American. The idea seems really foreign to me, oddly. Do you think the flow would tend more towards Canadians seeking work in the U.S. then? I wonder if the float operators would experience a surge of young American adventure-seekers. It's weird to think about.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by digits_ »

Meatservo wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:59 am Do the U.S. regionals pay better? Perhaps since they changed a few rules in the wake of the Colgan Air crash? You always read in the American news how poor the working conditions are in the States; I assumed it had to be at least a bit better here. I hardly have my finger on the pulse of the industry though. It would be weird after all these years to find myself sitting next to a young American. I've flown with Aussies and British and an assortment of people from the E.U. but never an American. The idea seems really foreign to me, oddly. Do you think the flow would tend more towards Canadians seeking work in the U.S. then? I wonder if the float operators would experience a surge of young American adventure-seekers. It's weird to think about.
The first few years: definitely. Signing bonuses (even for FOs), salary in US dollars. It gets quite lucrative. Not sure how it would compare over a whole career, but if you already start at double the Canadian salary, there is some wiggle room for later years.

The biggest flow would be Canadian ATPL holders at non major airlines to the US. But even some pilots at the majors might go to greener pastures. However, they would have to take an FO spot first I believe, as the US requires you to have a 1000 hours (?) in a US airliner before you can be in command. Canadian 705 time doesn't count. So that might be an obstacle for some. Then again, for the right amount, people will do anything.

Just a personal guess, based on anecdotal evidence.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by N181CS »

Meat- The wages and working conditions are significantly better.... for those now in a position to take the jobs at the regionals. Before they would have had to go to some rat hole in BF no where, find a place and pay for said place most of the time. If they had a family or were starting one that suffered in those smaller communities, either by having to commute or relocate. Plus spend about 10 years doing that. 8-10 years is a lot of time to get back especially when it comes to pensions and benefits.

Same young lad/las today might spend a year or 2 at a charter outfit or flight instructing then back home to the big city they came from. Partners career won't suffer by relocating, kids won't be in some small town were trouble is the main hobby of the young ones. You were 25-40 getting on at Jazz and the likes now it's 18-25. Don't get my wrong it's still not a good wage.... but at 25 I would have done it for security and the fact that I know I will make good money in a few years. People still took it when it was 10 years in the industry and 8 years to upgrade.

As for the Americans.... without that same 1500h rule we might see quite the line of folks wanting to cross that mark in their book. However the people who were licensed in the past 10-15 years might go south to skip the BS of our regionals still low pay for their age, experience and lifestyle. I would have a hard time sitting next to a 2000h wonder with no command time running the show. Not that it's his her fault but just no thanks. Seniority may the only "fair" way but is not going to work for me.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Meatservo »

That's all very interesting, thanks guys.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by pelmet »

Sent an email to our chief negotiators office about this very thing. But protecting those who extort us to pay significantly higher milk prices and their few votes are much more important. Maybe we should all send emails to congressman who are more interested in this. anybody here want to organize a pilots campaign?
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:21 am Sent an email to our chief negotiators office about this very thing. But protecting those who extort us to pay significantly higher milk prices and their few votes are much more important. Maybe we should all send emails to congressman who are more interested in this. anybody here want to organize a pilots campaign?
Be the change you want to see in the world!

:wink:
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Rockie »

Not that I don't think pilots should be considered professionals, but this negotiation was about much more important things than that. Does nobody remember the threat to destroy Canada's economy if a certain sociopathic, narcissistic toddler didn't get his way? It was only a few days ago after all.

IMHO Canada is lucky to have escaped with as little damage as we did, although it's definitely not over yet as no agreement with them these days is worth the ink it's printed with. It's also ironic that many of the same people who were in favour of capitulation to save whatever we could out of this are the same ones bitching that government negotiators didn't save enough.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by rookiepilot »

Rockie wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:11 pm Not that I don't think pilots should be considered professionals, but this negotiation was about much more important things than that. Does nobody remember the threat to destroy Canada's economy if a certain sociopathic, narcissistic toddler didn't get his way? It was only a few days ago after all.
Chill out. This was never about us in the first place. We are just the little fish In a much bigger game.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by gwagen »

pelmet wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:21 am Sent an email to our chief negotiators office about this very thing. But protecting those who extort us to pay significantly higher milk prices and their few votes are much more important. Maybe we should all send emails to congressman who are more interested in this. anybody here want to organize a pilots campaign?
They didn’t protect the dairy industry. They threw them thoroughly under the bus.

That aside.

There is a far more pressing issue in this new Nafta deal.

Canada has been annexed by the USA

We’ve lost our sovereign ability to conduct trade with “non-market” countries, basically any country not considered a western country.

We have to ask the US in writing three months in advance for permission to consider open a dialogue with another non market country in regards to trade. Then submit all conversations, documentation etc to the US and then if they’ve let us get this far they still get say at the end whether or not we can accept the deal!

We’ve lost a key piece of our sovereignty, what make us an independent nation.

It’s sickening that anyone on our side could’ve even remotely consider this ok.

Canadians should be up in arms about this, but we’ll just fawn over the sock puppet.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by av8ts »

gwagen wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:58 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:21 am Sent an email to our chief negotiators office about this very thing. But protecting those who extort us to pay significantly higher milk prices and their few votes are much more important. Maybe we should all send emails to congressman who are more interested in this. anybody here want to organize a pilots campaign?
They didn’t protect the dairy industry. They threw them thoroughly under the bus.

That aside.

There is a far more pressing issue in this new Nafta deal.

Canada has been annexed by the USA

We’ve lost our sovereign ability to conduct trade with “non-market” countries, basically any country not considered a western country.

We have to ask the US in writing three months in advance for permission to consider open a dialogue with another non market country in regards to trade. Then submit all conversations, documentation etc to the US and then if they’ve let us get this far they still get say at the end whether or not we can accept the deal!

We’ve lost a key piece of our sovereignty, what make us an independent nation.

It’s sickening that anyone on our side could’ve even remotely consider this ok.

Canadians should be up in arms about this, but we’ll just fawn over the sock puppet.
Do you have a link to this
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by C-GGGQ »

av8ts wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:45 am
gwagen wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:58 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:21 am Sent an email to our chief negotiators office about this very thing. But protecting those who extort us to pay significantly higher milk prices and their few votes are much more important. Maybe we should all send emails to congressman who are more interested in this. anybody here want to organize a pilots campaign?
They didn’t protect the dairy industry. They threw them thoroughly under the bus.

That aside.

There is a far more pressing issue in this new Nafta deal.

Canada has been annexed by the USA

We’ve lost our sovereign ability to conduct trade with “non-market” countries, basically any country not considered a western country.

We have to ask the US in writing three months in advance for permission to consider open a dialogue with another non market country in regards to trade. Then submit all conversations, documentation etc to the US and then if they’ve let us get this far they still get say at the end whether or not we can accept the deal!

We’ve lost a key piece of our sovereignty, what make us an independent nation.

It’s sickening that anyone on our side could’ve even remotely consider this ok.

Canadians should be up in arms about this, but we’ll just fawn over the sock puppet.
Do you have a link to this
I'll be damned

https://globalnews.ca/news/4511337/cana ... mca-nafta/
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Rockie »

Rockie wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:47 am
C.W.E. wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:39 pm It would be interesting to know what the US customs and Immigration people would think of Rockie if they read his venom about the USA here on Avcanada.
In public forums the US president has issued multiple, unambiguous threats of economic destruction against Canada. I am Canadian, my loyalties belong to Canada and my family...not the leader of your cult.
gwagen wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:58 pm We’ve lost our sovereign ability to conduct trade with “non-market” countries, basically any country not considered a western country.

We have to ask the US in writing three months in advance for permission to consider open a dialogue with another non market country in regards to trade. Then submit all conversations, documentation etc to the US and then if they’ve let us get this far they still get say at the end whether or not we can accept the deal!

We’ve lost a key piece of our sovereignty, what make us an independent nation.
I'm as unhappy about this provision (32-10) as anyone but it applies to all three countries, not just Canada. If exercised the current (proposed) USMCA reverts to a bilateral agreement which encompasses all the provisions of the trilateral deal.

"4. Entry by any Party into a free trade agreement with a non-market country, shall allow
the other Parties to terminate this Agreement on six-month notice and replace this Agreement
with an agreement as between them (bilateral agreement).


5. The bilateral agreement shall be comprised of all the provisions of this Agreement,
except those provisions the relevant Parties decide are not applicable as between them. "



I'm also less worried than I was about the global export limitations placed on certain dairy products in this agreement (Annex 3B, Section C) which is a further abdication of our sovereignty. Five years after entry into force and every two years thereafter Canada and the US shall meet to consider whether this provision can be modified or removed altogether. This provision can also be modified or removed at any time by mutual consent of Canada and the US. When a less despicable human being sits behind the Resolute Desk this could be gone.

"15. Five years after entry into force and every two years thereafter, Canada and the United
States shall meet to consider whether conditions have changed such that this section should be
removed or modified. Modifications, including removal, may be made at this time or at any other
time by mutual consent of Canada and the United States."
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Rockie »

North Shore wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 am Perhaps we can get back to discussing getting pilots on the list of approved occupations, sos we can all head south to the nirvana of high pay?
If you want that to happen the pressure is going to have to come from US operators through congress. Start there.
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Re: USA-Mexico-Canada Trade agreement

Post by Rockie »

North Shore wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 am Perhaps we can get back to discussing getting pilots on the list of approved occupations, sos we can all head south to the nirvana of high pay?
If I may suggest, find out where US regional carriers are based and in what districts the majority of their payroll and corporate taxes are paid. Contact both the companies in question and the relevant congressional and senate representatives telling them of the hordes of qualified pilots north of the border itching to move south and solve their problem for them. Tell them the only thing preventing salvation is the "professional" designation.
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