Logging Instrument time

[Freeport_Flyer]

A question about how Transport Canada wants to see instrument time logged:

For the ATPL / Group 1 there are certain requirements for the amount of instrument time required. If you are IMC or under the hood there are specific places to log that time in a logbook. How about if you are on an IFR flight, VMC and not under a hood? This is still instrument time, but it doesn't seem to fall under the Actual / Simulated columns of a logbook.

After a quick review of the logbook, my "instrument time" far exceeds the combination of "Actual / Simulated". When TC looks at the logs for issuing an ATPL I imagine they are only scanning the "Totals carried forward"; meaning they may infer that I have far less Instrument time than has actually been flown.

Can anyone, explain / elaborate on how to accurately log "Instrument time" if it is not IMC or under the Hood?

Thanks,

[photofly]

How about if you are on an IFR flight, VMC and not under a hood? This is still instrument time

It's not instrument time.

Instrument time means
(a) instrument ground time,
(b) actual instrument flight time, or
(c) simulated instrument flight time; (temps aux instruments)

Instrument time and IFR time are different things. There's no IFR time required for licences or ratings; there is often an instrument time requirement.

[fayuyang]

I called TC and asked this exact question and this is what I got for the answer

"You can only log instrument time when you are in actual IMC or under the hood and in the SIM during training, so for example, you did an hour flight from CYSB to CYTZ only during departure and landing you were in cloud or IMC. I only put 0.2-0.3 for my instrument time. You don't put any instrument time when you are above the cloud and clear"

So Actual IMC+Under the Hood+SIM = total instrument time. Which ATPL needs 50 Actual + Max 25 of SIM. Problem people usually have is, when they are applying for ATPL if the license agent sees you have total 1500 hrs and 1000 hrs of instrument time, you will get a red flag on your application. (Got this from the guy who processes our license in TC)

And this is how FAA define instrument time as well. FAR 61.51(g) says "A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

I always call Transport Canada on Yonge street 416-952-0230 if i have a question, and you will surprise they are very happy to help!!

[lownslow]

A good rule of thumb is that if you’re flying IFR on someone else’s schedule (ie. for work) then your IMC time should be about 10% of your flight time.

[5400AirportRdSouth]

You can only log instrument time when you are in actual IMC or under the hood and in the SIM during training, so for example, you did an hour flight from CYSB to CYTZ only during departure and landing you were in cloud or IMC. I only put 0.2-0.3 for my instrument time. You don't put any instrument time when you are above the cloud and clear"

So Actual IMC+Under the Hood+SIM = total instrument time. Which ATPL needs 50 Actual + Max 25 of SIM. Problem people usually have is, when they are applying for ATPL if the license agent sees you have total 1500 hrs and 1000 hrs of instrument time, you will get a red flag on your application. (Got this from the guy who processes our license in TC

This is almost word-for-word the same answer I got when I asked TC Prairies & Northern the same question when I was putting my ATPL application together.

If you're working for an operator that flies IFR, I only logged 0.5 for each actual IMC approach, nothing for enroute and nothing if there was no approach or departure procedure flown. It doesnt take long to get the required time and it keeps it under the threshold / ratio / percentage that she warned me would put my application under additional scrutiny.

Talking to different folks though, I've heard a wild variety of ways of logging it. I figured the above method was so conservative, I couldn't go wrong. Frankly, after you get the A's, no one gives a shit anymore anyways.

[HiFlyChick]

"You can only log instrument time when you are in actual IMC or under the hood...

...You don't put any instrument time when you are above the cloud and clear"

I agree with the first part of the statement - you only log actual when IMC. But the second part..... IMC does not mean in cloud, it means not VMC. Even if you're above cloud, if you need an IFR rating to be there, you're IMC. And before someone asks the obvious of what about VFR-over-the-top, that requires solid VFR at both ends and with good forecasts to remain so. Doing a flight where it's IMC at the departure, IMC at the destination, and above cloud the whole way - it's IMC and is logged as such. If it requires an IFR clearance to be there (and not a DVFR), it's IMC and can't be argued as otherwise.

BTW, to whomever said that the IMC portion is about 10% of the time in their logbooks- that really depends on where you do a lot of your flying (and possibly when). On the east coast, particularly in the spring, there are a lots of days where every minute of the flight is IMC. Not to say that there aren't VMC flights, too, but certainly the real numbers can be much higher than that around here. It's not like you can dissect every 3 hr flight, either - "Let's see, we were IMC for the first 35 mins, then we hit some VMC for 15, then IMC for 40 more, then...." Ridiculous! When I applied for my ATPL, I just estimated my IMC as half of my cross country time on charter.

[AuxBatOn]

Even if you're above cloud, if you need an IFR rating to be there, you're IMC.

So, you’re flying in severe clear condition in Class A airspace, you’re IMC?

[telex]

"You can only log instrument time when you are in actual IMC or under the hood...

...You don't put any instrument time when you are above the cloud and clear"

I agree with the first part of the statement - you only log actual when IMC. But the second part..... IMC does not mean in cloud, it means not VMC. Even if you're above cloud, if you need an IFR rating to be there, you're IMC. And before someone asks the obvious of what about VFR-over-the-top, that requires solid VFR at both ends and with good forecasts to remain so. Doing a flight where it's IMC at the departure, IMC at the destination, and above cloud the whole way - it's IMC and is logged as such. If it requires an IFR clearance to be there (and not a DVFR), it's IMC and can't be argued as otherwise.

BTW, to whomever said that the IMC portion is about 10% of the time in their logbooks- that really depends on where you do a lot of your flying (and possibly when). On the east coast, particularly in the spring, there are a lots of days where every minute of the flight is IMC. Not to say that there aren't VMC flights, too, but certainly the real numbers can be much higher than that around here. It's not like you can dissect every 3 hr flight, either - "Let's see, we were IMC for the first 35 mins, then we hit some VMC for 15, then IMC for 40 more, then...." Ridiculous! When I applied for my ATPL, I just estimated my IMC as half of my cross country time on charter.

You made a distinction between IMC and VMC but declared both are instrument time. I believe it can be argued otherwise.

[photofly]

There are two different recording requirements.

One is to record whether a flight is (filed) IFR or VFR, as dictated in 401.08(2)(d).

The other part is to be able to prove your instrument flight time, towards ratings or licences that have an instrument time experience requirement.

If it requires an IFR clearance to be there (and not a DVFR), it's IMC and can't be argued as otherwise.

Whether it's IMC or not isn't the question. There is no such thing as "IMC time", and nobody is interested in "IFR Time".

"Instrument Time" is actual instrument time, ground instrument time, or simulated instrument time. We all know TC's working definition of actual instrument time, and since Transport Canada is the body responsible for issuing licences and ratings, frankly their interpretation is the only one that counts for anything.

[goingnowherefast]

If you need instruments to keep the shiny side up, it's log-able instrument time. That's always been my test. "Would I have died if no instruments were in this plane during that portion of the flight"

Day time and between cloud layers and in good visibility is far from instrument conditions.

Simply changing the class of airspace will change the flight plan and clearance rules.

[HiFlyChick]

You made a distinction between IMC and VMC but declared both are instrument time. I believe it can be argued otherwise.

What I was trying to do (and obviously not doing a very good job at) is distinguishing a flight filed IFR vs one filed VFR-over-the-top with regards to someone's comment about being above cloud but in the clear. I'm just trying to say that even if you exclude VFR OTT cases from the discussion, if you've filed IFR and are above a solid cloud layer, it's IMC, and loggable.

So, you’re flying in severe clear condition in Class A airspace, you’re IMC?

No, that was the point I was trying to make by differentiating between filing IFR (or CVFR -sorry, I mistakenly typed DVFR - doh!) and being in IMC. If you're over a broken or overcast layer then the time is loggable. Class A is why you can't just make the statement "If you need an IFR clearance to be there" but need to stipulate "and it's IMC"

Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding what people are saying... (really congested and a bit fuzzy)

It sounded to me like someone was saying that if you're above a cloud layer (i.e. not in the layer) then it's not loggable as IFR - but the key point there is that we didn't clarify the nature of the layer - scattered or broken/overcast. What I'm saying is that if the layer underneath you is broken or overcast (hence my use of the statement that it's IMC), then it's loggable IFR time. Simply filing IFR does not make the time loggable if you are in VMC (i.e. you could be there on a VFR flight plan) - which is what it sounds to me like Photofly is saying is what you log. I almost always file IFR, but am only IMC probably half of the time - that's the part that is loggable "actual"

[HansDietrich]

I called TC and asked this exact question and this is what I got for the answer

"You can only log instrument time when you are in actual IMC or under the hood and in the SIM during training, so for example, you did an hour flight from CYSB to CYTZ only during departure and landing you were in cloud or IMC. I only put 0.2-0.3 for my instrument time. You don't put any instrument time when you are above the cloud and clear"

I find it silly. So you're flying at night from Yellowknife to Cambridge Bay, are you telling me you're not flying "by instruments"? Isn't "Instrument Time" supposed to be every time you fly IFR, regardless if it's IMC, Day, Night, flying over a blizzard, flying at night in the Arctic, etc? When you fly a STAR into YYZ, you go to a waypoint, not "Canada's Wonderland" (coincidentally, one of the waypoints on the Duvos1 arrival into YYZ is right over Canada's wonderland, or close to it)

In my opinion IFR flight = Instrument time. IFR = Instrument Flight Rules. One of the silly things I find with our CARs.

[Outlaw58]

Folks, in order to argue this topic properly, you need to use the proper terms with their proper definition (no worries, few people do)

IFR/VFR = refers to the flight regime you are flying under ie your flight plan. Pilot is always responsible for all aspect of flight in both regime regardless of whether it is by way of instrument or mark-1 eyeball with the only exception being traffic separation between IFR traffic becoming ATC's responsibility under IFR in controlled airspace*.

IMC/VMC = refers to the actual or forecasted weather at a given station.

IFC/VFC = refers to the flying conditions encountered at a specific time. This is the one that is rarely talked about and confuses the issue. If you require an AI to maintain the blue side up (whether actual clouds or simulated), you are in IFC. That's the time TC is interested in.

I know this is basic stuff but it often gets mangled up and used improperly. I often find folks arguing even though they are fundamentally in agreement just because they start off with different definitions for a given term.

2 cents

58

*- added in controlled airspace

[goingnowherefast]

Flying between two solid layers 1000' apart and in good visibility is visual flight conditions. Does not count as instrument time.

Flying night VFR with no moon and under high overcast between Yellowknife and Cambridge Bay is also instrument flight conditions. If you turn off all the lights and blink, you can't tell when your eyelids are open, it's still just as black. There's no horizon, no nothing. Certainly can't tell if you're even in a cloud.

[Outlaw58]

Flying night VFR with no moon and under high overcast between Yellowknife and Cambridge Bay is also instrument flight conditions. If you turn off all the lights and blink, you can't tell when your eyelids are open, it's still just as black. There's no horizon, no nothing. Certainly can't tell if you're even in a cloud.

Good example.

In the military, half of the actual flight time in those conditions can be logged as actual time. Bottom line, it's your log book, log that time as you see fit and be ready to back it up if questioned about it.

58

[HiFlyChick]

Flying between two solid layers 1000' apart and in good visibility is visual flight conditions. Does not count as instrument time.

Flying night VFR with no moon and under high overcast between Yellowknife and Cambridge Bay is also instrument flight conditions. If you turn off all the lights and blink, you can't tell when your eyelids are open, it's still just as black. There's no horizon, no nothing. Certainly can't tell if you're even in a cloud.

In the first case, you cannot legally file VFR, so how is it not loggable IFR time? In the second case, you can fly in those conditions on a VFR flight plan (not a good idea, but legal), so how can two aircraft be in the same place and one be logging instrument but the other not?

[telex]

Flying between two solid layers 1000' apart and in good visibility is visual flight conditions. Does not count as instrument time.

Flying night VFR with no moon and under high overcast between Yellowknife and Cambridge Bay is also instrument flight conditions. If you turn off all the lights and blink, you can't tell when your eyelids are open, it's still just as black. There's no horizon, no nothing. Certainly can't tell if you're even in a cloud.

In the first case, you cannot legally file VFR, so how is it not loggable IFR time? In the second case, you can fly in those conditions on a VFR flight plan (not a good idea, but legal), so how can two aircraft be in the same place and one be logging instrument but the other not?

Reread post #13. Loggable IFR time?

[goingnowherefast]

Flying between two solid layers 1000' apart and in good visibility is visual flight conditions. Does not count as instrument time.

Flying night VFR with no moon and under high overcast between Yellowknife and Cambridge Bay is also instrument flight conditions. If you turn off all the lights and blink, you can't tell when your eyelids are open, it's still just as black. There's no horizon, no nothing. Certainly can't tell if you're even in a cloud.

In the first case, you cannot legally file VFR, so how is it not loggable IFR time? In the second case, you can fly in those conditions on a VFR flight plan (not a good idea, but legal), so how can two aircraft be in the same place and one be logging instrument but the other not?

In example 1, you can easily ignore all the instruments and do any sort of visual maneuvers safely and in control of the aircraft. In the 2nd example, if you tried to ignore all the instruments and do a gentle 360 degree turn, you'd be into a spiral dive and dead.

In example 1, assuming class G airspace, I can file an itinerary with flight service and they don't care if its IFR or VFR. No clearance is issued and I'm only provided with alerting service.

I'm not sure how to tell the difference between VFR and IFR in class G airspace with good weather and lots of gas. Maybe the code on the transponder?

Going back to example 2, why is it dumb to fly under night visual flight rules? Chances are I'm not filing with flight service anyway, just use a company itinerary. Forecasts and reports might say 15000' overcast, I've got lots of fuel and I want to go at 9500. I can see every airplane within 20 miles of me, but that is literally all I can see. My life is dependent on those flight instruments.

And yeah, read post 13.

[AuxBatOn]

Like it has been said before, IMC is when you are mot VMC. VMC has a very specific definition, in terms of distance from clouds laterally and vertically, and visibility. If the conditions you are flying in meet the VMC definition, it is not instrument time, unless flying simulated instruments. If the conditions you are flying in do not meet VMC, you are in actual instrument conditions. The definition of VMC varies with airspace type. It’s all in the CARs..

[AuxBatOn]

And those definitions are (for fixed wing):

Controlled Airspace: 3 miles flight vis (ground vis in control zones if reported), 1 mile horizontally from cloud and 500 ft vertically

Uncontrolled Airspace (above 1,000 ft AGL, day): 1 mile flight vis, 2,000 ft horizontally, 500 ft vertically.

Uncontrolled Airspace (above 1,000 ft AGL, night): 3 miles flight vis, 2,000 ft horizontally, 500 ft vertically

Uncontrolled Airspace (below 1,000 ft AGL, day): 2 miles flight vis, clear of cloud

Uncontrolled Airspace (below 1,000 ft AGL, night): 3 miles flight vis, clear of cloud