Where is this so called shortage

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flyingcanuck
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by flyingcanuck »

Well said, I agree with you.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Good article here
http://www.askthepilot.com/pilot-shortage/
Even better comment section
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Oh my god LaGuardia, all this talk of "suffering" and "accepting my fate" and you've not even started your career. I'm sorry, but just because you don't feel like you're acting entitled doesn't mean you aren't. Look, there are at least a couple of currently incontrovertible realities about starting out in aviation in this country. First, like it or not, and regardless of it's merits or lack thereof, working the ramp is a pretty sure fire way to start. (And luckily for you, it doesn't take nearly as long these days and the working conditions and pay are way better than ever before.) Second, is that there are still options to skip the ramp and get directly into the cockpit of small airplanes to gain valuable time and experience, and even make some decent money in the process. Outside of instructing, these are the ways in which you can work your way towards your dream job. Presumably you knew this from the get go. If those options represent too much "suffering" for you that's fine, but don't complain that your goals are out of reach. Obtaining your CPL is neither a huge accomplishment nor the end of the effort required to have a successful career. Whinging about not being handed your goals without having to work for them is the very definition of entitlement.
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

shimmydampner wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:59 pm Oh my god LaGuardia, all this talk of "suffering" and "accepting my fate" and you've not even started your career. I'm sorry, but just because you don't feel like you're acting entitled doesn't mean you aren't. Look, there are at least a couple of currently incontrovertible realities about starting out in aviation in this country. First, like it or not, and regardless of it's merits or lack thereof, working the ramp is a pretty sure fire way to start. (And luckily for you, it doesn't take nearly as long these days and the working conditions and pay are way better than ever before.) Second, is that there are still options to skip the ramp and get directly into the cockpit of small airplanes to gain valuable time and experience, and even make some decent money in the process. Outside of instructing, these are the ways in which you can work your way towards your dream job. Presumably you knew this from the get go. If those options represent too much "suffering" for you that's fine, but don't complain that your goals are out of reach. Obtaining your CPL is neither a huge accomplishment nor the end of the effort required to have a successful career. Whinging about not being handed your goals without having to work for them is the very definition of entitlement.
I stand by what I said in my last post. If a bunch of pilots on a forum want to judge me based on that and call me entitled, then go right ahead, I'm not going to lose any sleep over some forum comments from random people who don't know me. I already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject

I won't be replying anymore because I have nothing more to say and it's very clear what people's positions here are
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

The ugly truth is that there is no shortage of entry level pilots in Canada, and if you don’t make some sacrifices for that elusive first job your peers will pass you by.
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mixturerich
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by mixturerich »

Laguardia wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:30 pm already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject
I agree with a lot of things you say. But I find it ironic that you are “losing time” by writing posts when really you are losing time by not finding a quicker job. You’re losing time while your peers pass you by. And in an industry where seniority is paramount, this could bite you very hard. What are you doing with your time right now that’s so important?

You say you’re not going to reply anymore, which sounds like you can’t take take the heat and criticism, which is too bad, because like everyone you will had bad rides, make mistakes, and have captains tear you a new one, so I hope you have a tougher skin that that, because you’re gonna need it.

I also want to add that there are a lot of small operators out there where you will do some of the most amazing, fun, interesting, dynamic, experiential flying and will have the best times flying of your entire career. Some of those have a ramp job entry to get to them. So you’re nissing out on a lot of excellent flying because of your stubbornness.

It also frankly sounds like you don’t actually want to be a pilot that badly. You have to REALLY want it, because there is a lot more bullshit in this industry than just working a ramp job for half a year. I hope you don’t turn out to be a know-it-all FO, or a lazy pilot afraid to go the extra mile.

Just trying to help light a fire under your ass.
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ekg
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ekg »

A more optimistic perspective:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/i5aE97LGgOw[/youtube]

Not sure how much of that is true for Canadian aviation. Regardless it's clear that the career is only for those that really want it
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

mixturerich wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:08 am
Laguardia wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:30 pm already lost enough time writing those 2 other posts when I knew I shouldn't have even opened up the subject
I agree with a lot of things you say. But I find it ironic that you are “losing time” by writing posts when really you are losing time by not finding a quicker job. You’re losing time while your peers pass you by. And in an industry where seniority is paramount, this could bite you very hard. What are you doing with your time right now that’s so important?

You say you’re not going to reply anymore, which sounds like you can’t take take the heat and criticism, which is too bad, because like everyone you will had bad rides, make mistakes, and have captains tear you a new one, so I hope you have a tougher skin that that, because you’re gonna need it.

I also want to add that there are a lot of small operators out there where you will do some of the most amazing, fun, interesting, dynamic, experiential flying and will have the best times flying of your entire career. Some of those have a ramp job entry to get to them. So you’re nissing out on a lot of excellent flying because of your stubbornness.

It also frankly sounds like you don’t actually want to be a pilot that badly. You have to REALLY want it, because there is a lot more bullshit in this industry than just working a ramp job for half a year. I hope you don’t turn out to be a know-it-all FO, or a lazy pilot afraid to go the extra mile.

Just trying to help light a fire under your ass.
I guess when I said I'm not going to reply it was directly to the people who just want to throw out labels at me when they don't know me at all and are basing it off 2 posts I made.

You're actually bang on with everything you said. I genuinely agree with you and appreciate your post. I am losing time, day by day... going to my monday to friday job isn't doing me any good either other then earning a solid income.I know I can survive off what a rampie makes, and then what an FO would make, I just need to finally decide it's time to make that move before I get too old and it's too late. A lot of my friends and family have been trying to light a fire under my ass too, which is why when I used the term "accept my fate" I meant that I need to get my shit together and just go for it or accept my stubbornness and forget about it all together.

Cheers
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ant_321
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ant_321 »

There is certainly no shortage of 250hr wonders but if my LinkedIn inbox is any indication there is certainly a shortage in Canada and abroad. I usually get 3-5 emails a day from recruiters. Some great opportunities others not. P.S. if anyone knows a Georgian or Porter recruiter can you ask them to leave me alone!?
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ajet32
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ajet32 »

There is a shortage just not as some have mentioned in Canada. I have flown is Asia, Europe and the Middle East often training new FO's right out of the simulator with 200-250 hours.They are starting on say a CRJ1000 or some other similar jet/turboprop. B737,A320 ATR42/72. In SE Asia and the Middle East there is little or no General Aviation so pilots either pay or are bonded for years to train for that seat. In Indonesia at Garuda it was an 11year bond/training contract. At the competitor you paid your type training and licence and went straight to a B737 A320. These young men and women did fine in the professional environment. In a way they didn't have any bad habits that had to be forgotten they learned what the company SOP said to do from the beginning. There theory knowledge was better than many of us and with time there hands and feet caught up to the rest of the program.
It's a very different system than ours and it works for them. There have been a few spectacular crashes in SE Asia but we have our share of complete FUBAR's here at home. not sure which system is better.
If you should perhaps land at Dubai World Central you will see lines of B777-200/300's belonging to Emirates parked because they are short crew. They are not the only international Flag carrier with aircraft parked due to lack of crew. I went through Istanbul and many other European airports the past year and many aircraft under utilized due to lack of crew.
The Canadian market is unique and it's unfortunate that the pay is overall so far behind international levels. Oh it's a great place to live I agree and coming home is awesome. Then I talk to someone about B737 jobs and hear things like $96,000 for a Captain and $55,000 for and FO. In Canadian dollars. Need to get with the times.
Get that first 500-1000 hours of large aircraft time and the world is truly your oyster. A lot of great flying opportunities out there a friend of mine just made Captain on the B787 at 36. Left Canada about 506 years ago spent a bit of tie in the "sandbox " now in Europe. All a question of priorities and lifestyle/s.
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ekg
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ekg »

It's not unheard of being an FO on a jet after going through a cadet program in Europe or Asia. I know a couple of engineers that made the career change and did just that and are flying jets in Europe and Asia. Takes about 2 years. One flies an a320 and another a 747. They were in their late 20s when they started as FOs. Comparing those experiences to what pilots go through in Canada and the US I'm starting to think going the expat route is the optimal way to go.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Canadian aviation will never catch up with the rest of the world until our flag carrier stops paying poverty wages. $54,000 for a new 777 FO. I would wager Air Nigeria pays more!
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UNS1C
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by UNS1C »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:55 am Canadian aviation will never catch up with the rest of the world until our flag carrier stops paying poverty wages. $54,000 for a new 777 FO. I would wager Air Nigeria pays more!
And two things that need to happen for that to happen are......

The govt needs to butt out and allow us to actually have the ability to strike if needed and we need a real union. Not hopeful on either.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

The thing you've got to understand about Europe though (or the UK specifically) is that these days you have to go to the right flight school and do an integrated program in order to have any chance of getting these straightforward into a jet jobs. If you can't afford to spend around $200k to get your frozen atpl then you have far less opportunities than you do in Canada. There is pretty much just one option - instruct. To get the instructor rating these days is probably around $20k. Then you'll make a whopping $25k a year (if you're lucky) and building the hours as an instructor in the UK is very hit and miss due to our weather.

It may seem like the grass is greener in Europe but unless you have access to a big chunk of money that you can gamble with you are much much better off in Canada.

I agree with you though Laguardia, it does suck that after spending all that money etc that you then have to go off and work the ramp to somehow prove yourself worthy of flying an aircraft. To be honest though you're not doing that, what you're doing in a strange way is contributing to the aviation industry in this country. The beginner Pilot working as cheap labour rampie I'm sure basically allows a lot of these smaller operators to survive. If they couldn't use Pilots to do these jobs and had to get non-pilots to work 16 hour days for next to no money they'd be done for, without the carrot of the flying job at the end of it the non-pilot would just refuse to work such long hours for such low pay.

Even when you make it to that flying job you've got many years of low pay work for long hour days ahead of you until you finally get that decent wage and decent job. If you're only goal was to make a lot of money (or even a standard amount of money) relatively quickly then you're in the wrong profession. You basically need to just say to yourself that you accept that you're going to right off the next few years in terms of making a decent amount of money because in the long run you will get to where you want to be. It's going to be tough, but you know this, and like you say you've just got to decide if its personally worth it to you to right off the next few years worth of income to eventually get to that Air Canada job.
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bearitus
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by bearitus »

I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

bearitus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:24 am I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
That's just sad and I feel sorry for you because you (and a lot of other pilots out there) deserve better. How the hell is it fair for someone to have to consider giving up their dream job (i'm assuming pilot was your dream job) just to be able to support their family?
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

I'm kind of in a similar position with deciding where my career should go. As a regional FO with 1800 hours and a Bachelors degree I think I have a competitive resume for AC but I am not sure if I want to spend another 5 years (I'm already 4 years in) being broke and not being able to provide for my young family.

I have recently been looking at alternative career routes such as corporate aviation, 703/704 captain jobs or even going back to grad school and getting a Mba.

Ultimately these other jobs may not pay as much as AC in the long run but may provide a better lifestyle in the short term.
Yup we're in a similar position. I've got about 1800 hours too with a variety of turboprop multi crew stuff and multi piston pic. I'm looking at probably another few years on pretty low wages and wondering if I should go back to the engineering job. It's a tough industry that's for sure!
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

That's just sad and I feel sorry for you because you (and a lot of other pilots out there) deserve better. How the hell is it fair for someone to have to consider giving up their dream job (i'm assuming pilot was your dream job) just to be able to support their family?
If one can not support a family on the wage that Air Canada pays you have to choose between your family and Air Canada.

There are other jobs in aviation that pay a living wage.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Come on cupcakes. It's not sad, it's not tough. You can get your AAs in cracker jack box now and be a 705 captain making 6 figures or close to it, or a mainline FO within five years of the ink drying on your CPL (if those are your goals.) The last info I have on AC is a bit old, but started at over $50k/year and going up rapidly from there. Admittedly, that's not great but it does go up substantially and quickly. Not to mention all the benefits, schedule, perks. pension, etc. And it's pretty easy to get to either avenue. Be a half way normal human, have a good attitude, work hard, plan your career moves intelligently and be willing to relocate. It's not rocket science. If you can't make it work, the problem is YOU. If any of the above is an affront to your delicate sensibilities, it's because you are an entitled snowflake.
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Laguardia
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Laguardia »

shimmydampner wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:17 pm Come on cupcakes. It's not sad, it's not tough. You can get your AAs in cracker jack box now and be a 705 captain making 6 figures or close to it, or a mainline FO within five years of the ink drying on your CPL (if those are your goals.) The last info I have on AC is a bit old, but started at over $50k/year and going up rapidly from there. Admittedly, that's not great but it does go up substantially and quickly. Not to mention all the benefits, schedule, perks. pension, etc. And it's pretty easy to get to either avenue. Be a half way normal human, have a good attitude, work hard, plan your career moves intelligently and be willing to relocate. It's not rocket science. If you can't make it work, the problem is YOU. If any of the above is an affront to your delicate sensibilities, it's because you are an entitled snowflake.
No it doesn't... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years? It also doesn't go up that much per year either...

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... air_canada

I can say that those numbers are fairly accurate given what i've heard from friends working at Air Canada

I can also say schedule is also not the greatest depending on the type of aircraft, some types take forever to move up in seniority...

With the way prices of houses has sky rocketed, and cost of living going up, aviation wages have been lagging significantly... not saying that other job wages have increased drastically, but come on. Making it work is one thing, and if your a single guy or gal, it's great... but i'm sure by the time a lot of pilots end up at Air Canada, their life situation has changed

No one said you don't have to make sacrifices and make it work, because clearly a lot of members here do echo that sentiment, but with mentalities like yours lingering in aviation, things will take a VERY LONG TIME to change

So i'm sorry that not everyone is within your realm of standards from the 1960s... times have changed but clearly your mentality hasn't and if that makes us all a bunch of entitled snowflakes I say you can go pound sand
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