Where is this so called shortage

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goleafsgo
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by goleafsgo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:26 pm

If you're already working a random job while looking for a flying job, what's wrong with accepting a ramp job while still looking for a flying job, worst case scenario you don't find a direct entry flying job, at least you'll be in the running for an fo position wherever you're working the ramp?
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:41 pm

digits_ wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:20 am
pelmet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:39 am
But the crashing doctors and dentists for stupid reasons is very relevent. Why?....because it proves that a degree does not in any way guarantee a good pilot or a pilot any better than anyone else. Yet we have airlines making it mandatory.
No it isn't, because there is no suitable control group. You would have to compare groups with similar flying experience if you wanted to determine the effect of a degree.
I really don't know why you have changed the subject to comparing accident rates for pilots with and without a degree. I disagreed with your statement of....
digits_ wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:39 am
I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience. Someone who can get a science/engineering/... degree WILL be able to learn whatever you throw at him airplane related and actually understand said systems better. He will also have developed an attitude of seeing things through, helping each other out, team work etc, while learning to think analytically, objectively and logically.
Therefore you have guaranteed us that having a degree will make them understand systems better than anyone without a degree. And that anyone with a degree WILL be able to "see things through", whatever that means, and thinking analytically, objectively, and logically. Sorry but I could find all kinds of accidents where the thinking you guarantee was nowhere to be found and the pilot with the degree only saw things through to his unecessary accident.

Perhaps you have a degree, spent several years getting one at the cost of not flying and therefore want othrs to have to do the same. But if you have a degree, your claims have proved that you did not learn the things you think you have. I will agree that a certain level of intelligence is required for a degree. Not much else is required.

I prefer people with actual hands on aviation experience for hiring. Aviation related degrees get consideration from me. Non-aviation, wasted money and time for the applicant..
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valleyboy
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by valleyboy » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:41 am

When airlines or anyone requires or says a degree is an asset it has nothing to do with what you learned or the fact that you have a degree. It just proves you have the ability to learn. In the past it was about "hands and feet" now, no so much. Actual piloting skills are taking a back seat to automation.
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flyzam
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by flyzam » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:20 am

valleyboy wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:41 am
When airlines or anyone requires or says a degree is an asset it has nothing to do with what you learned or the fact that you have a degree. It just proves you have the ability to learn. In the past it was about "hands and feet" now, no so much. Actual piloting skills are taking a back seat to automation.
we all have the ability to learn. If you have been to university, then you would also know that these days there are not the sharpest of knives out there getting degrees.

Saying that, to fly 705 these days only takes remembering a set procedure and doing it over and over again

Image
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Last edited by flyzam on Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

TSAM
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TSAM » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:21 am

Long time ago when pilots were plenty and the jobs were few, the education was the tie breaker between 2 or more similar applicants. Today it is irrelevant. AC hires, 2000 hrs pilots with a degree over 5-6000 hour pilots without a degree and likely have a few type ratings. Those type ratings are proof enough a pilot can learn an airplane, and those hours prove he/she has learned a few things in the industry. If it was me, I'd take the experienced and many others would agree.
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flyzam
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by flyzam » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:23 am

TSAM wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:21 am
Long time ago when pilots were plenty and the jobs were few, the education was the tie breaker between 2 or more similar applicants. Today it is irrelevant. AC hires, 2000 hrs pilots with a degree over 5-6000 hour pilots without a degree and likely have a few type ratings. Those type ratings are proof enough a pilot can learn an airplane, and those hours prove he/she has learned a few things in the industry. If it was me, I'd take the experienced and many others would agree.
couldn't agree more. Past type ratings and experience proves a lot more than a degree in lesbian dance theory
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:29 am

flyzam wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:23 am
TSAM wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:21 am
Long time ago when pilots were plenty and the jobs were few, the education was the tie breaker between 2 or more similar applicants. Today it is irrelevant. AC hires, 2000 hrs pilots with a degree over 5-6000 hour pilots without a degree and likely have a few type ratings. Those type ratings are proof enough a pilot can learn an airplane, and those hours prove he/she has learned a few things in the industry. If it was me, I'd take the experienced and many others would agree.
couldn't agree more. Past type ratings and experience proves a lot more than a degree in lesbian dance theory
Some might consider that subject a science...and therefore give preference over experience in industry.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am

pelmet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:41 pm
I really don't know why you have changed the subject to comparing accident rates for pilots with and without a degree. I disagreed with your statement of....
That was all you my friend. You were the one bringing up a degree in comparison with working on the ramp.
pelmet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:41 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:39 am
I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience. Someone who can get a science/engineering/... degree WILL be able to learn whatever you throw at him airplane related and actually understand said systems better. He will also have developed an attitude of seeing things through, helping each other out, team work etc, while learning to think analytically, objectively and logically.
Therefore you have guaranteed us that having a degree will make them understand systems better than anyone without a degree. And that anyone with a degree WILL be able to "see things through", whatever that means, and thinking analytically, objectively, and logically. Sorry but I could find all kinds of accidents where the thinking you guarantee was nowhere to be found and the pilot with the degree only saw things through to his unecessary accident.
No. Don't put words in my mouth. There can be a whole bunch of people out there without a degree that could understand the systems as well or better than someone with a degree. I merely stated that a scientific degree practically guarantees that a person is able to understand airplane systems etc thorougly.

If you take a group of people without a degree, and a group of people with a degree, there will be a higher percentage of people in the group of degree people that will have a more thorough understanding of the airplane systems.
pelmet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:41 pm
Perhaps you have a degree, spent several years getting one at the cost of not flying and therefore want othrs to have to do the same. But if you have a degree, your claims have proved that you did not learn the things you think you have. I will agree that a certain level of intelligence is required for a degree. Not much else is required.
I want to get every pilot in a cockpit. If they fly good, they can stay there, if not they should get kicked out. I do NOT advocate requiring a degree for any flying position. It is not necessary. But neither is a ramp position. I do see value in the idea of using a degree as a selection tool if you are swamped with applicants.

A certain level of intelligence and a healthy dose of perseverance are the most basic ingredients you would need yes.

pelmet wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:41 pm
I prefer people with actual hands on aviation experience for hiring. Aviation related degrees get consideration from me. Non-aviation, wasted money and time for the applicant..
I've already agreed that flying experience is the best experience for a pilot. If that is not possible, then, in general, I think a scientific degree trumps ramp experience.

I'd value an engineering/doctor/science degree way above an aviation "degree". By the time a pilot is an ATPL, he will most likely have acquired a lot of knowledge he would have gotten in the aviation degree program. It's easier to access yourself. A science degree gives you a whole different way of thinking and looking at things, something that you would probaby not acquire by yourself.
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:46 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am
I'd value an engineering/doctor/science degree way above an aviation "degree".
Maybe.....too bad we so many stupid doctor/dentist crashes though. It seems endless.
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:50 pm

I can't argue with ridiculousness. First you say what I highlighted
digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am
I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience. Someone who can get a science/engineering/... degree WILL be able to learn whatever you throw at him airplane related and actually understand said systems better. He will also have developed an attitude of seeing things through, helping each other out, team work etc, while learning to think analytically, objectively and logically.
Then I said....
pelmet wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:50 pm
Therefore you have guaranteed us that having a degree will make them understand systems better than anyone without a degree.
Then you said...
digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am

No. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you take a group of people without a degree, and a group of people with a degree, there will be a higher percentage of people in the group of degree people that will have a more thorough understanding of the airplane systems.
You deny what you said and then say pretty much the same thing again in a different way. Show us the proof. You have none.

Hire who you want, you have no evidence to back up your claims. Neither do I, but I still prefer people with industry experience(it also shows long term interest in the industry). I suspect that there are a lot of other industries that are the same, including the sciences that are not particularly interested in someone with experience and/or a degree in something completely different. But that is only a guess.

I would like to see some actual aviation specific studies about degree holders understanding systems better studies. The dentist in the Navajo that killed 6 people by not switching fuel tanks(link posted earlier) obviously is not representative of all degree holders but he doesn't give me much confidence that they WILL know systems better than non-degree holders.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:55 pm

I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience.
If a scientific degree is so important to be a pilot why is there no minimum education required to be a pilot?

As long as you can read and write you can get any pilot license.

So much for how difficult it is to become a pilot.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:22 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:50 pm
I can't argue with ridiculousness. First you say what I highlighted
digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am
I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience. Someone who can get a science/engineering/... degree WILL be able to learn whatever you throw at him airplane related and actually understand said systems better. He will also have developed an attitude of seeing things through, helping each other out, team work etc, while learning to think analytically, objectively and logically.
Then I said....
pelmet wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:50 pm
Therefore you have guaranteed us that having a degree will make them understand systems better than anyone without a degree.
Then you said...
digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:00 am

No. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you take a group of people without a degree, and a group of people with a degree, there will be a higher percentage of people in the group of degree people that will have a more thorough understanding of the airplane systems.
You deny what you said and then say pretty much the same thing again in a different way.
My claims:
- A science degree will allow a person to understand systems better in comparison to that same person without a degree
- A person without a degree can still have a better system knowledge than someone with a degree
- A pilot with a science degree should have no problems passing the knowledge part of a CPL/PPC/typerating
- Since a person with a science degree have proven to be capable to study complex systems, it is logical to assume they have more chance of passing/scoring higher in/have a better understanding of/... an easier course, than a goup of random people from the street. Not an exact proof, but it sounds logical to me.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:52 pm

Being any kind of mechanic whether aviation or automotive or any other mechanical job is far more valuable when it comes to systems understanding than a university degree in my opinion.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:33 pm

Being any kind of mechanic whether aviation or automotive or any other mechanical job is far more valuable when it comes to systems understanding than a university degree in my opinion.
I agree, and being a mechanic requires far more knowledge than being a pilot.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:26 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:52 pm
Being any kind of mechanic whether aviation or automotive or any other mechanical job is far more valuable when it comes to systems understanding than a university degree in my opinion.
Absolutely
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:01 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:33 pm
Being any kind of mechanic whether aviation or automotive or any other mechanical job is far more valuable when it comes to systems understanding than a university degree in my opinion.
I agree, and being a mechanic requires far more knowledge than being a pilot.
And no degree is required, yet......
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pelmet
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:15 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:22 pm
My claims:
- A science degree will allow a person to understand systems better in comparison to that same person without a degree
I doubt it. There are plenty of mechanics without a degree as was just mentioned who will likely understand the systems better. And there are plenty of people who have the ability to be mechanics who can learn the systems quite well. And our Navajo guy is a perfect example of how a degree doesn't guarantee anything. Of course there are those who are weak on systems as well.

And don't get me wrong. A certain amount of cramming was done to pass the exams and no doubt there are plenty of smart people out there with their science degrees but only fools think that this is much of a measure of what will make a good pilot for your company.

Good judgement, reasonable ability at stick and rudder flying, good short and long term memory, ability to pick up on things fairly quickly are just some of the things required. Then there are all the personality issues which span people with and without degrees.

There is science in aviation(I suppose everything) so a science degree is not completely wothless(depending on the science) but seeing as the majors are now making a degree a requirement, I would suggest to mid-level operators(ie. those that have the type of operation that would lose pilots to the majors) that if you want people that will stick around for a while(or have less options for them to leave), then avoid the degree holders. They will mostly be gone before you know it as the big, shiny jet syndrome affects many. In other words, give the job to someone who will stick around longer who appears to have what you are looking for in a pilot. What company wants a revolving door.
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7dirty7
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by 7dirty7 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:38 pm

There sure is a shortage, but it's a shortage of reasonably experienced pilots. 3000+hours of good experience going into strips and conditions that are challenging. Entitled pilots are plentiful... .
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rookiepilot
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Value of a degree?

Depends on who was teaching. A piece of paper, as I've said in the past, by itself means absolutely nothing, certainly in my non aviation industry-- where top MBA's and Doctoral graduates, make fools of themelves on a regular basis.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:54 pm

Degrees are practically useless for piloting an aircraft.

Sure, an engineering degree might help you understand aircraft systems a bit better, but it’s for the most part wasted. There’s absolutely no need for a pilot to know anything about things like metallurgy or load paths or inductive reactance or smoke point or advanced fluid dynamics. Pilots need to know the what and when, not the how and why. The what and when are how we operate and if you get too far into the how and why it starts displacing essential information and even worse, forming bad and even dangerous habits.

Practical experience is far more valuable in determining a pilots worth. Can you obtain a license? Can you fly a plane? Can you fly it safely? Can you do a type course? Can you pass a PPC? Can you operate efficiently? That’s what is going to keep passengers safe and operations profitable, not some piece of paper which may or may not correlate with a person’s actual practical knowledge.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:50 am

Degrees are practically useless for piloting an aircraft.

Yes but they also show that you are capable of applying yourself to a problem, understanding it and overcoming it. Someone without a degree could be equally capable of doing so but a degree is proof that you can.

When it comes to employing people with limited aviation experience (who don't have a bunch of PPC's on complex aircraft as proof they can master them) who would you take a chance of investing your money in.
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bearitus
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by bearitus » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:57 am

I agree, I have an engineering degree and while it does not make me a better pilot it has helped me learn how to study effectively and absorb information quickly when doing a new type rating.
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munzil
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by munzil » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 am

bearitus wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:57 am
I agree, I have an engineering degree and while it does not make me a better pilot it has helped me learn how to study effectively and absorb information quickly when doing a new type rating.
I hope that the $50k you spent for someone to teach you how to study was worth it 8)
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TT1900
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TT1900 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:21 am

What’s the value of a degree to a pilot or employer? It’s just one more criteria they can use to narrow their field and pick their people. Same as speaking several languages, other post-secondary education, achievements in fields outside of aviation, community involvement, and hobbies.

I certainly agree that flying experience is the most valuable thing a pilot can bring to the table, up to a point, and the airlines clearly agree as that’s always their primary criteria. But it can’t exclusively be summed up by hours and type ratings. Is a 4000hr 737 pilot going to be appreciably better than a 3000hr one? Is that 3000hr 737 better than a 5000hr Q400 guy? Are both better or worse than a 1500hr C-17 or F-18 pilot? What about a guy who spent 1000hrs crop dusting or flying floats in the bush before working through regional airline jobs?

There are exceptional pilots with low time, no degree, who sit around playing video games in their off-time and have the personality of dry toast. There are also shitty ones.

There are exceptional pilots with high time, multiple degrees, multi-lingual, tons of hobbies and charisma to the moon. There are also shitty ones that check every box.

End of the day pilots are just people, running the full spectrum. It’s why iinterviews & sim evals are still a thing. The more criteria an employer looks at the easier it is for them to pick & choose their people without being sued.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:41 am

I hope that the $50k you spent for someone to teach you how to study was worth it
I bet Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins all had degrees..... just saying :wink:
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