Where is this so called shortage

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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#26 Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:16 pm

There is no shortage of pilots. There is a shortage though of pilots that have current PPCs on the type that the company operates, lots of big experience and hours to keep their insurance rates as low as possible and don't forget to be willing to relocate and put up with their crappy starting salaries.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#27 Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 pm

Meatservo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 pm


So you do ARE advocating putting them on the ramp to start out. I don't know what groundschool you've been attending, but during groundschool most pilots are "attending groundschool", so working the ramp would be impossible.
I am not. However if an employer thinks it is necessary to gain ramp skills or to use the ramp as a test, a week on the ramp is all he would need to evaluate a candidate. That can be done before, after or even during groundschool depending on schedule. More than a week and you are just using them as cheap labour.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#28 Post by Diadem » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:45 pm

I don't think pilots should work the ramp, but if that's the only path that exists towards getting a flying job and someone isn't willing to do it, then I don't have any sympathy for them when they can't get into a cockpit. If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to become a pilot, then you probably won't get to where you want to be. If a company has planes parked because they require all pilots to do six months on the ramp, then yes, that's stupid and exploitative; on the other hand, if they have a full complement of pilots and want new hires to throw bags for a bit, the ones who are willing to work the ramp will end up flying and the ones who don't will still be exactly where they were before. You, personally, can sit around obstinately refusing to accept anything less than what you think you're worth, and I commend your resolve, but unless every low-timer is willing to take the same stand it won't change anything. In that case, you need to question whether you're willing to do what it takes to become a pilot, and if you're not willing to do it then find a new career. You can rage against the unfairness of the rules all you want, or you can learn to play by them; at the end of the day, if you don't play by the rules as they're currently written, you'll lose the game.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#29 Post by Meatservo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:37 pm

munzil wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:03 pm
Meatservo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:25 pm
I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.
I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
I was talking to the kid who quit.


I see nothing in this post that would be sensible to argue against, but if we were going to overhaul our attitudes towards ramp work, or not doing ramp work, then I would like to see an improvement in the quality of training in Canada as well! That way, if your new F.O. isn't good for much else, you could at least count on him or her to be able to fly! Right now, it's US that has to teach them to fly, and they can at least earn their keep helping with the other stuff in the meantime.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#30 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:49 pm

There are some real ass hats out there. How do you figure out who's a decent person and who's a clown before dropping 30 grand on a FlightSafety course? It would be nice to fire the clown a week into ramping instead of a week into line indoc.

The best method is probably to run a week long company indoc, crm, pdm, aircraft ground school, etc. for a class of 10. Boot the bottom 3 candidates based on behavior, attitude, punctuality, etc. Call it a week long "performance interview".

Bottom line is 250hr pilots fresh from training will turn a 2 crew cockpit into about 3/4 crew because the captain is so busy babysitting. Want to hear a bunch of hilarious and scary stories? Just walk in on a bunch of line indoc captains talking about some of their adventures. Planes do get bent and that turns a 30 grans PPC into a 100 grand training repair bill. I'm sure the operations managers and chief pilots would like to know the person a bit better than a 15 minute, well rehearsed and scripted "interview". After all, 250hr FO candidates always say what they think the chief pilot wants to hear.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#31 Post by Outlaw58 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:04 pm

I think this whole thread boils down to how folks view a career in the aviation industry.

Over the last two decade or so, we have seen a rise in folks who view flying career as their god-given rights and damned be anyone who would suggest they'd have to work for it. For those who did work hard for it, be it through working ramps, expatriation, military, instructing, or whatever... flying careers are viewed as a privilege that they had to earn, requiring continuous work and discipline in order to keep that privilege.

I don't think anyone suggest that folks who don't work the ramp don't deserve to fly, just that folks should start viewing flying as a privilege rather than a right and be ready to work accordingly in order to earn that privilege.

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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#32 Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm

The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#33 Post by FICU » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:19 pm

Too many 200 wonders and not enough 200 hour wonder flying jobs. The only thing that differentiates all the 200 hour wonders is their personality in terms of working well with other crew members and, more importantly, their work ethic. You have to prove yourself to these 703 operators if you want a seat in a cockpit. Your flying qualifications mean squat.
munzil wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm
FICU wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 pm
In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.
Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#34 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm
The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#35 Post by DanWEC » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:00 pm

There are bad employers in every industry. This isn't unique to aviation.
Choosing the people you work for is entirely your own decision.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#36 Post by SkySailor » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:45 pm

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm
The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
Good question. REALLY good question. :roll:
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#37 Post by 7507 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:38 am

Just do it the way the U.S is doing it , minimum 1500 hours to get the right seat job and now you don't deal with all these so called young 200 hour wonder kids flying with their captains that have to babysit them.

Then you'll have a decent crew that won't bend the metal and maybe the complaning from the captain babysitters will slow down.

Thoughts? 1500 hours ?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#38 Post by Heliian » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am

First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#39 Post by munzil » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:54 am

Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
I think I am starting to see the problem here.

In my day (croaky voice) we put the work in well before the license. We worked second jobs and even third jobs to pay for our licenses and living costs. So only the dedicated got a license.

It seems now from my experience most new pilots have had everything paid for. It's kinda like that new car they got that daddy bought for them. It's dinged up and a mess because they don't care for it, because it was given to them.

Maybe the same is with their careers. I agree there is an undercurrent of privilege to attitudes out there.

Maybe the solution is stop paying for kids education and
Raising them like little nancies who deserve everything. That and a 1500 hour rule and we have Aviation solved here in Canada 😎
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#40 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:18 am

The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#41 Post by ehv8oar » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:11 am

I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
Now that should be a stickie.

As digits said, the whole rampie thing is purely a way for some companies to get cheap labour.

They know that it makes sense as a business to do so because the low hour Pilot, for the chance of getting into the cockpit, will put up with the, sometimes, poor attitudes and zero respect of the company bosses towards them in a way that would have a normal worker saying no way I'm working for next to nothing to be treated like that and walking out the door.

Everybody has to learn how to fly in a commercial environment once they've left flying school and just because you're the best rampie in the world (the bosses love you because you can sweep the hanger at the same time as carrying bags and kissing ass) it doesnt prove that you're going to be any better an Aircraft Pilot than the guy who isnt so good at being a Brush Pilot.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#42 Post by ehv8oar » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am

First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
Exactly, legally it cant but if you're paid a monthly salary, not by the hour, then who's to say how many hours you actually end up working. Work over a certain amount and at a point you start working for less than minimum wage.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#43 Post by Outlaw58 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:28 am

ehv8oar wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am
First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
Exactly, legally it cant but if you're paid a monthly salary, not by the hour, then who's to say how many hours you actually end up working. Work over a certain amount and at a point you start working for less than minimum wage.
You made a lot of teachers cry with that story

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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#44 Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:34 am

Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, all operators -especially 703 operators who are dangling the carrot to the ramp guys- are always following all rules and regulations.

Up until a couple of years ago, there were FOs who weren't even making minimum wage! Let alone ramp guys. They get hired for a legal minimum wage 40 hour work week and end up working 10 hours a day. Or they have to be at the base 24/7 in case someone shows up for fuel at a random time,but they ended up working only 6 hours, so it's legal, right?
Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.
If the goal is to learn about aircraft, you can do that in a week with an experienced ramp guy. Even a day if the company puts in the effort to show you everything you need to know.
Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.
Nobody is asking for that.
Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
Indeed, by working towards honing your flying skills, by flying a 206 - navajo - king air - whatever .. - airliner
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:18 am
The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
Ah yes, it's been a while since we've had some instructor bashing here.

"If a pilot has less experience than I had when applying for that particular job, he is unsafe and needs more training. If he has more, he is a fool and bringing down the industry by accepting sub par working conditions."
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#45 Post by 7507 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:17 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:18 am
The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
So are you saying you'd rather hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching, yeah this so called professional aviation industry in Canada is messed up huge!

Yeah a 152 is different than a 705 machine but it was a 172 that brought down a 727 in California back in the 80s. Size didn't matter there did it?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#46 Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:56 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm
The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
I'm on this forum because I love aviation, I'm not really content on driving a truck as compared to flying a plane for a living but driving a truck has allowed me to be able to buy my own plane and rent a hangar for it. I get way more excited about pushing my own plane out and going flying whenever I want than I did when I was working as a pilot, and that is enough to satisfy me I guess. It's just sad that I can make more money driving a 10 wheeler than my Captains were making on a 1900.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#47 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:00 am

hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching,
The problem is the 1500 hour instructor has taught the same old T.C. pablum for all those hours and may actually think it is useful.

So I will take the 200 hour pilot and teach him/her how to fly in the real world of aviation.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#48 Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:44 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:00 am
hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching,
The problem is the 1500 hour instructor has taught the same old T.C. pablum for all those hours and may actually think it is useful.

So I will take the 200 hour pilot and teach him/her how to fly in the real world of aviation.
You can say the same for every type of flying.

The 1500 hour 206 pilot has flown between the same 8 airports for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour beaver pilot has flown between the same 15 lakes for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour medevac pilot has flown in the same province for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour 737 pilot has flown the same routes for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour airshow pilot has flown the same figures for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.

And as posted before, the planes in the real world of aviation can still crash if they collide with the planes of the imaginary (?) world of aviation.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#49 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:52 pm

I have to hand it to you digits, your thought process is profound.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#50 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm

A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think. Just adapting that experience to a different operation.

Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
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