Where is this so called shortage

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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#51 Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#52 Post by C-GGGQ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options. Both are single pilot aircraft and if I can "fly" a super 200 at 5 sitting next to my grandfather on a run up to the maintenance shop, even the drooliest 200 hr wonder can too.

The 1500 he instructor also has 1300 hrs of judging his and students limits. Knowing when to take over from a student also teaches you when you need to defer to the experienced captain. I would think generally a 1500 hr instructor will be a easier crew to work with.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#53 Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm
Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#54 Post by C-GGGQ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:45 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm
Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
Oh we are on the same page here. Applied for a Navajo position, was asked if I would accept ramp. I told them I've worked every ramp from a ftu up to the a380 out of Pearson. I won't accept ramp as their is nothing more I can learn there. They agreed and gave me f/o. Know what I'm gonna do when I reach 1500 (let's be honest 800-1000 hrs) Navajo time? Not go sideways to a king Air. I'll be 1400-2000 hrs and I'll be knocking down Porter Sunwing and Transat. Maybe AC. Or I cave to my wife's desire to try the US and get her nursing career to sponsor my ass in too.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#55 Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:56 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:45 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm
Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
Oh we are on the same page here. Applied for a Navajo position, was asked if I would accept ramp. I told them I've worked every ramp from a ftu up to the a380 out of Pearson. I won't accept ramp as their is nothing more I can learn there. They agreed and gave me f/o. Know what I'm gonna do when I reach 1500 (let's be honest 800-1000 hrs) Navajo time? Not go sideways to a king Air. I'll be 1400-2000 hrs and I'll be knocking down Porter Sunwing and Transat. Maybe AC. Or I cave to my wife's desire to try the US and get her nursing career to sponsor my ass in too.
If you're really good you might get to fly a metro :wink:
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#56 Post by C-GGGQ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:01 pm

Hey a guy can dream
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#57 Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:59 pm

Heliian wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
"Working any job in Canada will get you at least minimum wage" really? Not in the aviation industry. My 1st FO job got me $50 a day, I started at 6am and finished at 7 pm, their answer was "you only flew for 2 hours so you got $25 an hour"
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#58 Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:25 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
Oh my god, this is so true!!!

Ex bush pilots are so like this. Diving off the glide path to drag it in, shooting through any hole as if it’s the only one they’ll ever see, not communicating any intentions of what they’re doing nor doing what was briefed, and micromanaging every little thing and being in a 703 hurry if they aren’t PNF, and perhaps worst, getting overloaded during a tough approach or emergency because they won’t slow down or ask for help.


goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.

Also assuming that a flight instructor who’s flown single engine aircraft FOUR seasons doesn’t know what bad weather looks like. :roll:

Flying a flight school aircraft on an ILS is much more like flying a high performance aircraft on an ILS than it is flying a Beaver around in marginal conditions.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#59 Post by JayVee » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:13 am

Now he's holed up in his mom's basement>
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#60 Post by GhostRider6 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am

I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#61 Post by TheRealMcCoy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:01 pm

Hmm, i'm actually not against that really... An interesting perspective, I like it.^^^
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#62 Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:22 pm

GhostRider6 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
Wait - so I've got 16000 hours some and wide body PIC and you're saying I should work the ramp before I join a new company? good luck with that.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#63 Post by C-GGGQ » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm

I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#64 Post by digits_ » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:51 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:22 pm
GhostRider6 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
Wait - so I've got 16000 hours some and wide body PIC and you're saying I should work the ramp before I join a new company? good luck with that.
Yes, and if they deem you worthy you get a right seat job on a Dash :mrgreen:

But if you would have dared to take a DEC position at Swoop, you would have been a pariah! With 16000 hours you need to be an FO first, just like the rest of us! :wink:

The system is broken.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#65 Post by plhought » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:56 pm

We'll minimum wage in 'Berta is 15 bucks now.

The 'big' money for ramp guys/prospective pilots I knew was in the OT cleaning snow and doing ancillary duties like tech records, etc.

If yeah only wanted to chuck bags for 30 hours a week then yeah you made f-all.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#66 Post by Diadem » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm
I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
Before I started flying I worked a ramp job for a sizeable company, albeit one that could never have led to a cockpit. At the time it paid almost $20/hr to start, and it went up towards thirty for a basic, non-supervisory rampie position. That was years ago, and with inflation the starting pay is up to $25.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#67 Post by GhostRider6 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 am

Hey,

I should have been more specific. No, the 777 driver does not need to throw bags..

However, I don’t see it as being beneath someone with low time around 0-6000 hrs ish. And yes, I’m including myself in this with 5k.

Maybe having to put in a little more work to get that regional job ( jazz, encore, Sky, GGN) might elevate the pay ( which IS close to min wage).

When did we start being a bunch of entitled primadonnas?

Working the Ramp also works for the pilot.. there’s no bond. If you discover you don’t like the company during your Ramp tenure and your dreams of XYZ company aren’t exactly being realized.. then leave .. no bond.. nada

It might also ingrain some work ethic that seems to be missing...

Yes, I worked on the Ramp. And yes, I know what it’s like.. I did it for several years. For me and many others the Industry was crap when I started and was a constant struggle .. when you finally got somewhere company XYZ went bankrupt and you’d start all over again.. back on the Ramp from square one.

Back to the Ramp thing ... the expectation is you don’t take breaks, if you want lunch eat it with a broom in your hand..or on the forklift... you are in a constant state of motion. You find things to do when not doing onloads/ offloads and keep busy cleanup office garbage, wash planes, empty garbage for mechanics, clean someone’s car etc. I don’t see how a little work is beneath someone or “ degrading”? Or how this is awful? Want to know something? I’m better for it.. I treat support staff like human beings and with respect and I don’t think I’m God’s gift to the skies.

As for the original issue..I’m 100% against new college grads in 705 aircraft. I do think a sense of work ethic, respect for others and their position needs to be instilled first. This practice is dragging down wage and working conditions greatly for the rest of us who have put in our time and climbed the ladder.

Also, lots of the skills learned on the Ramp are transferable to the cockpit: teamwork, humility, thinking ahead, taking initiative etc etc

For the OP: as a newly minted pilot you need to create your own opportunities my first flying job came from working for an environmental consulting company to the mining industry. I met the pilots while I was loading and offloading aircraft ( note: not doing doing anything involved with environmental consulting) I was the “ new guy” and similar to Aviation, I wanna got the undesirable jobs ( which happens in many other professions) which led to my first Ramp job and then flying job. Why not volunteer as a pilot to get your time up? This is good experience and it looks amazing on a resume.

When I worked on the Ramp I was well paid and made more on the Ramp than in the plane. ( 4K / month) More than I make at my 705... by far
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#68 Post by digits_ » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:24 am

GhostRider6 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 am
Want to know something? I’m better for it.. I treat support staff like human beings and with respect and I don’t think I’m God’s gift to the skies.
If that's what it takes for you to treat others with respect, then great!

There is a whole bunch of people out there who don't need to work the ramp in order to learn to treat people with respect though.

And there is also a bunch of people out there who can work the ramp for a decade and still will treat people like crap once they make it into an airplane.

The ramp is not some magical place that fixes everything that is wrong with humanity. Some common decency or basic education goes a long(er) way.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#69 Post by GhostRider6 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:38 am

Hi,

I do have an education and I do have a degree. And I had a career outside of Aviation where I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I had no issue with proving myself in either field or job that I was handed.. I also had zero issue with a little work to get to where I wanted. I never expected to be handed things on a silver platter.

And no, I was never the person that screamed at the waiter or waitress/barista/ whatever . ( metaphorically speaking) I learned that from a young age.. However, I see this in some of the people I’ve flown with.. people either forget where they’ve come from or have no perspective.

Similarly, if I see things not being done properly I have less of an issue speaking up.. because I know I’ve been there and I know I gave it my all and did things properly!

The Ramp didn’t solely teach me that. However, I think it’s normal to gain a lot from being pushed to the limit.. whether that’s working on the Ramp or in sports ..I push myself in whatever I do whether it’s in sports ( climbing, mountain biking etc) or flying. I push myself to be better.. and it builds character and teaches me things about myself everyday.. Is this such a bad thing? I’m also not perfect .. i’ll be the first to admit it.. and a little humility isn’t bad! My mountain bike is really good at humbling.haha!

I’m saying it might be beneficial for some people who have grown up on N64 to be pushed a little and humbled.

Maybe I wasn’t clear..
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#70 Post by seven-oh-nooo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:53 am

munzil wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm
Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace.
Because at the small shops there's a big-ass question mark hanging over you until the boss gets to know you. I've hired rampies and flight followers and whatever the hell else and for an applicant with zero track record that's the safest way to do it. About a quarter don't make it to the cockpit. Is it because I'm heartless? Some would say yes. It's also because the ones who were let go from ground positions were deemed an unacceptable risk in an airplane. Flying is not like other careers because the consequences of your actions are often immediate and permanent. I'm certain by now I've saved at least two lives with my outlook on this. Possibly more.

Nowadays you ramp at the right place and you're flying an airplane inside six months. The current career ladder still has you starting in small airplanes with near-autonomous crews, it's that autonomy that needs you to show what you've got before you can be entrusted with it. All you have to do is gain the boss' trust.

That's the situation. That's how it is. Either bitch about it or use it to your advantage while leaving the entitled whiners in the dust.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#71 Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:50 pm

Diadem wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm
I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
Before I started flying I worked a ramp job for a sizeable company, albeit one that could never have led to a cockpit. At the time it paid almost $20/hr to start, and it went up towards thirty for a basic, non-supervisory rampie position. That was years ago, and with inflation the starting pay is up to $25.
And before I started flying I worked Ramp for air Canada. Starting wage was 10.25 in 2005. Like I said. I've worked a lot of ramp jobs. Highest paid was perimeter at $12 in 2011/2012
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#72 Post by Outlaw58 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:30 pm

IMHO I think that between the entitled generation's point and the grumpy has-been's point. There is a common ground that can be found where most of us should agree that while there have been companies who have taken advantage of the masses of up and coming pilot willing to do anything to get that first gig, thus requiring the pilot body as a whole to stand up and say:"NO MORE!" There remains a minimum that up and coming pilots can and should do to set themselves apart from their peer in order to get that first gig. Ramp is one example, for me it was getting boot to ass in the military, and there are other example as well....

Walking out of the TC office with a piece of paper while saying:"Where's my damn job!?" is just not quite enough though.

58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#73 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:40 pm

....And good times don't last forever. Something to keep in mind.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#74 Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:52 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm
Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.
The good Captains have patience. I've flown with those rushing Captains before, I know Airlines are bussineses but really, taking over the radio work while you are already taxiing and asking for take off clearance before I've finished the after start checklist? I know you are trying to impress the Chief Pilot and all by being early all the time but do you think 45 seconds is really going to matter? I seem to remember an accident where the flaps got left up on take off some years back.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

#75 Post by EPR » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:36 pm

I'm 100% in agreement, no 250 hour kid should ever be allowed to sit right seat 705, the time spent working ramp/dock builds character! Why build character you ask?
Because it instills work ethic and empathy, just to name a couple of attributes that you will eventually need to acquire, which you will quickly get by having that experience under your belt already...or hopefully you will eventually acquire it after maybe a decade of growing up without the ramp/dock experience! Why do I need work ethic and empathy you ask? Because with work ethic and empathy, everything else will fall into place as it should without pompous decisions and self entitlement, it just makes everything in regards to this job better for everyone involved because we've all been crewed with "that guy"!
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