Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

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Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by SRV » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 pm

Banning cannabis use among any staff is nothing short of hypocritical and grossly over correcting. While I completely agree with the ban and strongly agree cannabis, like any other state altering substance, in the wrong hands is a public danger. It, however is also a scientifically proven medicine for many diseases and ailments and therefore is in the public interest in terms of benefits hence now legal.

What I find as hypocritical and a gross misjudgement is that alcohol, a pure poison, is not a public concern to these so called companies!
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by co-joe » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:47 pm

It's in response to a letter from Transport Canada:

I would assume that all air operators have been sent the same letter, and correspondingly set their own similar internal policy.
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Last edited by co-joe on Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:00 pm

Based on the title, I thought this was going to be a rant about shitty pay :roll:
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by atphat » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:31 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:00 pm
Based on the title, I thought this was going to be a rant about shitty pay :roll:
Lol. You should see how little I make. :roll:
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by telex » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:58 pm

SRV wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 pm
Banning cannabis use among any staff is nothing short of hypocritical and grossly over correcting. While I completely agree with the ban and strongly agree cannabis, like any other state altering substance, in the wrong hands is a public danger. It, however is also a scientifically proven medicine for many diseases and ailments and therefore is in the public interest in terms of benefits hence now legal.

What I find as hypocritical and a gross misjudgement is that alcohol, a pure poison, is not a public concern to these so called companies!
Where is user alcoholism when you need him...
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Spokes » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:57 am

SRV wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 pm
Banning cannabis use among any staff is nothing short of hypocritical and grossly over correcting. While I completely agree with the ban and strongly agree cannabis, like any other state altering substance, in the wrong hands is a public danger. It, however is also a scientifically proven medicine for many diseases and ailments and therefore is in the public interest in terms of benefits hence now legal.

What I find as hypocritical and a gross misjudgement is that alcohol, a pure poison, is not a public concern to these so called companies!
Regarding the medicinal aspect of your comment, I refer you to science based medicine. There is not much proven, other than hype outpacing the science.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/medica ... s-science/

This is part 1 of a three part blog by an actual scientist, not a random pot blogger.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by plhought » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:09 am

co-joe wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:47 pm
It's in response to this letter from Transport Canada:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/nca.flynca.com ... FgsV5zg%3D

I would assume that all air operators have been sent the same letter, and correspondingly set their own similar internal policy.
Resource Planner links don't work unless you are logged in 😉. Probably have to repost that bud.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:22 am

There's lots of medical drugs available that you aren't allowed to use and fly with, many of them available over the counter. Just add pot to that list.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by cdnpilot77 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 am

plhought wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:09 am
co-joe wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:47 pm
It's in response to this letter from Transport Canada:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/nca.flynca.com ... FgsV5zg%3D

I would assume that all air operators have been sent the same letter, and correspondingly set their own similar internal policy.
Resource Planner links don't work unless you are logged in 😉. Probably have to repost that bud.
Basically it said that TC will not be changing its position on cannabis which is that abuse (of which recreational and medicinal use is considered abuse) is a disqualifier of a medical
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Rooster69 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 am

A joke? Really? What are they supposed to use as a guideline? 8 hours? 24? 48? 1 week?
Can you tell me, how long does it take for cannabis to leave a body?

In this day and age, they have to cover their collective asses.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by FL007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am

Rooster69 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 am
A joke? Really? What are they supposed to use as a guideline? 8 hours? 24? 48? 1 week?
Can you tell me, how long does it take for cannabis to leave a body?

In this day and age, they have to cover their collective asses.
OK then how long does it take to rid your system after inhaling second hand smoke? Should I use 15 sick days after I went to a house party and someone was legally smoking weed because cannaboids could have attached to the stem of my brain and are waiting to reactivate at a moments notice?

This is now legal and going to be much more prevalent in our society, there needs to be science to back up all these claims companies are making on the negative effects of inhaling a plant.

Also the lawsuits are coming.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:20 am

FL007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am
OK then how long does it take to rid your system after inhaling second hand smoke? Should I use 15 sick days after I went to a house party and someone was legally smoking weed because cannaboids could have attached to the stem of my brain and are waiting to reactivate at a moments notice?

This is now legal and going to be much more prevalent in our society, there needs to be science to back up all these claims companies are making on the negative effects of inhaling a plant.

Also the lawsuits are coming.
Studies show that even after 77 days of abstinence you will still fail a drug test if you're a heavy user (Ellis et al, 1985). Both THC and its metabolites are stored in fat cells, and they will be slowly released when you are under stress or food deprived (i.e. anything which causes your body to burn fat).

You might want to avoid those pothead house parties.

Ever tried smoking weed? It's not really that much fun (certainly less fun than flying, unless you're doing the flying wrong), and the long-term effects of heavy use aren't fun (depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms). It also doesn't seem to be very useful at pain relief:

https://journals.lww.com/pain/Fulltext/ ... _of.6.aspx
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by FL007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:35 am

CpnCrunch wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:20 am
FL007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am
OK then how long does it take to rid your system after inhaling second hand smoke? Should I use 15 sick days after I went to a house party and someone was legally smoking weed because cannaboids could have attached to the stem of my brain and are waiting to reactivate at a moments notice?

This is now legal and going to be much more prevalent in our society, there needs to be science to back up all these claims companies are making on the negative effects of inhaling a plant.

Also the lawsuits are coming.
Studies show that even after 77 days of abstinence you will still fail a drug test if you're a heavy user (Ellis et al, 1985). Both THC and its metabolites are stored in fat cells, and they will be slowly released when you are under stress or food deprived (i.e. anything which causes your body to burn fat).

You might want to avoid those pothead house parties.

Ever tried smoking weed? It's not really that much fun (certainly less fun than flying, unless you're doing the flying wrong), and the long-term effects of heavy use aren't fun (depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms). It also doesn't seem to be very useful at pain relief:

https://journals.lww.com/pain/Fulltext/ ... _of.6.aspx
I've tried weed when I was younger, it's not for me. It's now going to be legal, however, and very prevalent in society.

You can tell me to avoid "pothead" parties, but these parties include scholars and doctors who will use recreationally, and legally exercising their right.

Heavy use of anything isn't fun, nor recommended; alcohol, baked goods, etc.

What about Nyquil as someone else mentioned, heavy use will reduce ability to sleep which in turn causes depression, anxiety, fatigue, etc. Where's my company policy banning Nyquil?

The difference between alcohol and weed is that alcohol can't accidentally end up in my system and weed can, from no fault of my own, second hand inhalation is just as potent as first hand, and even though I don't smoke I'd like something more than a blanket ban on weed due to fear mongering.

The amount of times I've taken in second hand cigarette smoke inadvertently in the past month makes me seriously question what I'm going to do if on my way to the terminal I walk through a plume of marijuana smoke. Do I call crew sked?


Edit: for anyone who wants a tldr on the "facts"

This research was done to study effects on people with debilitating illnesses.

Study showed pretty well inconclusive that weed affected pain more than 30% reduction, no significant finding of mind altering side effects as long term studies were not linked to this study.
Conclusions
It seems unlikely that cannabinoids are highly effective medicines for CNCP. There is moderate- to high-grade evidence supporting use of nabiximols to achieve modest reductions in pain as adjunctive therapy in MS-related pain. However, NNTBs were high and NNTHs low, with high rates of dropout for AEs, and long-term efficacy and safety is unknown. We also found minimal evidence that cannabinoids are effective in improving other important domains in people with CNCP such as emotional and physical functioning. Cannabinoids are unlikely to be a monotherapy for CNCP. People living with CNCP often have complex comorbidities,9,70 and multidisciplinary treatment that includes physical and psychological therapy rather than reliance on medicines alone is likely to be most effective.
With legalization only time will tell what the long term effects on recreational use will be. I'd put a big bet on less detrimental outcome on society than alcohol. Studies will be released for sure in the next couple of years.

In the meantime I'll be telling my professional friends that I now have to segregate myself from them, as my prestigious profession, besides differentiating itself from theirs in regards to schooling cost/potential earnings, now has forced decision making in my own personal life. I can not go to their "pothead" parties, I will tell them, says avcanada.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by co-joe » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:17 pm

I can't link to that letter I thought it was an online document directly from TC...
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Last edited by co-joe on Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by co-joe » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:29 pm

To who it may concern;

The legalization of recreational cannabis in Canada on October 17, 2018, serves as an important occasion to remind the aviation industry of its obligation to operate aircraft in a manner that is not impaired by either alcohol or drugs. To contribute to a safe and secure transportation system, a number of legislative and regulatory measures exist today that prevent and deter the impaired operation of aircraft.

This letter applies to the Canadian aviation community, including industry, management and labour organizations, operators, pilots, and professional associations. The Government of Canada has passed legislation to legalize, strictly regulate, and restrict access to cannabis. The Cannabis Act creates a strict legal framework for controlling the production, distribution, sale, and possession of cannabis in Canada. The legislation allows adults to legally possess and use cannabis.

Transport Canada is responsible for dealing with fitness for duty considerations such as
medical state and impairment as they relate to safety in air, marine, rail and motor
vehicle modes of transport by federally-regulated employers. Transport Canada is aware
that the Canadian aviation community may be concerned about the upcoming
legalization of cannabis and are seeking guidance.

Cannabis use can cause immediate impairment but also causes longer-lasting impairment that may not be obvious to the user or to the people around them. Cannabis, like many other substances such as narcotics, muscle relaxants, anti-depressants, etc., causes impairment that can affect the judgement and actions of members of a flight crew, including pilots. There is scientific consensus regarding the long-lasting effects of cannabis on individuals, even after impairment is no longer felt. However, current tests for the psychoactive chemical in cannabis do not correspond with impairment levels. As a result, in the interest of aviation safety, Transport Canada does not intend to ease restrictions on the use of cannabis or other substances that cause impairment.

Impairment caused by cannabis use is a serious issue for Transport Canada given its potential to threaten aviation safety. Despite the impending legalization of cannabis, Transport Canada has an existing regulatory framework in place concerning impairment. Pursuant to the Aeronautics Act and the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs), regulations and medical standards address the consumption of drugs and alcohol by certificate holders, such as pilots. The CARs, under section 602.03, set out the rules governing alcohol and drug use by crew members: canadian Aviation Regulations (SORJ96-433) Section 602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft: (a) Within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage; (b) While under the i;4fiuence of alcohol; or (c) While using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety ofthe aircraft or ofpersons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way. Currently, the use of cannabis is a disqualifying factor for obtaining a medical certificate to fly or control aircraft. The CARs currently provide that all members of a flight crew, such as pilots, are prohibited from working while using any drug (legal or illegal) that impairs faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or people on board is endangered in any way. The definition of a drug includes cannabis and, therefore, these regulations will continue to apply once the Cannabis Act comes into force.

Transport Canada has a robust medical protocol and testing regime in place in order to address substance abuse disorders. Canadian medical certificate holders with a known diagnosis of substance abuse may be subject to no-notice drug and alcohol testing to ensure compliance with the abstinence provisions of their certificate. Taking cannabis, and products containing it, across any international border is illegal and can result in serious criminal penalties in Canada and in other countries, including the United States. The import and export of cannabis will remain illegal after the legalization of cannabis in Canada, and also when travelling to or returning from jurisdictions with legalized or decriminalized cannabis. This includes cannabis for medical purposes. Each country or territory decides who can enter or exit through its borders. The Government of Canada cannot intervene on your behalf if you do not meet your destination’s entry or exit requirements. During state control procedures, pilots or other crew members may be denied entry to a foreign country, including the United States, if they have previously used cannabis products, even if these products were used legally in Canada. Transport Canada remains committed to ensuring a robust evidence-based regulatory framework when evaluating the various policy options and measures needed to mitigate impairment risks. In collaboration with Justice Canada, Health Canada, and Public Safety Canada, Transport Canada remains vigilant in ensuring that the issue of impairment, which includes impairment from cannabis use, undergoes proper policy rigour and legal analyses to safeguard aviation safety while balancing the legal rights and responsibilities of employees and supervisors. If you have any further questions concerning the legalization of cannabis use, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you for your continued interest in maintaining the high safety standards of Canada’s aviation industry

Signed by:

Nicholas Robinson
Director General,
Transport Canada, Civil Aviation

François Collins
Associate Director General
Transport Canada, Civil Aviation
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Victory » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:13 pm

Well you couldn't get more vague than that.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Alcoholism » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:21 pm

telex wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:58 pm
SRV wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 pm
Banning cannabis use among any staff is nothing short of hypocritical and grossly over correcting. While I completely agree with the ban and strongly agree cannabis, like any other state altering substance, in the wrong hands is a public danger. It, however is also a scientifically proven medicine for many diseases and ailments and therefore is in the public interest in terms of benefits hence now legal.

What I find as hypocritical and a gross misjudgement is that alcohol, a pure poison, is not a public concern to these so called companies!
Where is user alcoholism when you need him...
Hi! You asked, I've arrived. I stopped reading any posts below this, because this guy gets me, the rest of you...well...
SRV wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:13 pm
Banning cannabis use among any staff is nothing short of hypocritical and grossly over correcting. While I completely agree with the ban and strongly agree cannabis, like any other state altering substance, in the wrong hands is a public danger. It, however is also a scientifically proven medicine for many diseases and ailments and therefore is in the public interest in terms of benefits hence now legal.

What I find as hypocritical and a gross misjudgement is that alcohol, a pure poison, is not a public concern to these so called companies!
Where the fudge factory do I begin with this piece of literature disaster. First. I assume you contacted your PM (because that POS isn't my PM), to let him know that you feel it's unjus....wait.. what the fack is your position.. for? against? I don't even know. Nor does the guy above me.. I think. Let's just say he's pre-agreeing with me. I digress, what I do know is, alcohol isn't poison! ... you know crack is prohibited right? Because it seems like you've had a sniff or two. No judgement.

Now if you read a thing or two about the subject, you'll know that THC stays in the blood/fat for waayyy much longer than good ole alcohol. So to debate (master like) you're theory that a lil toddy isn't a public concern, I'll say this. Unfortunately, every airline has implemented 12 fricken hrs from sanity juice to reporting to the chain gang, which is more than the 8 hrs from TC.... not THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol), I can see how the two can be confused at times. Additionally, how many news stories are out there of so and so pilot caught drunk blah blah blah. And how there's this push from our space cadet transport minister to have random testing for not only drugs but firewater as well! Now if Westjet and Air Circus didn't do a full out ban, imagine the consequences if one of them say, plow a plane into a taxiway at say I dunno... SFO with THC in the blood. All about CYA and lawyer excrement at large corps. How do you not know this? Anyways, I waste too much effort into this rebuttal, and it's only Monday.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:26 pm

If you have an accident and they find you have cannibis in your system is your medical valid?
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by tsgas » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:25 pm

If you want to fly for the major airlines , then you have to follow their rules. If you prefer to be a SJW , then paint up some posters , take a few tokes of your loco weed , and march through the streets .

The safety of the pax should never be considered as a joke of any kind.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by telex » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:49 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:26 pm
If you have an accident and they find you have cannibis in your system is your medical valid?
Since there is no test for soon to be legal drugs from your CAME one would assume one's medical cannot be deemed invalid for presence of legal drugs after an accident.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Puffpuffpass » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm

What a time to be alive, sure would be nice to go down and pick up a pack of spliffs at Shoppers da night....In time I hope. I’ve been debating jumping on as lead of the pilots for Cannibis group and try and speed up the process but it’s to much of a risk.....worst part is, is it was easier for us god like folks to have the odd puff when it was illegal and not spoken about.....I’ve stayed well clear of it now for a while....guaranteed random testing coming on soon... I’m a pound 14 beers tonight and watch the good ole ‘ockey game.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by IKEA_Monkey » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:57 pm

Reefer madness isn't going to go away overnight. TC has a hard enough time keeping the lights on at their office, never mind fulfilling their mandate (fatigue?). How then should they have responded to cannabis legalisation?

The answer is they cannot, at least not at this time. To implement a sound cannabis policy (especially one concerning impairment), TC would first require a substantial amount of factual information. To the surprise of many, our scientific understanding of cannabis is almost non existent. Most people have a social understanding of cannabis and it's effects which leads them to believe it is well understood. It is not. In reality the legal status of cannabis has prohibited almost all research of any significance. Only now with legalisation, will meaningful studies commence. So bereft of any real (legal) understanding TC and other parties have defaulted to the most conservative policy - zero tolerance.

Over the next few years there will emerge a scientific definition for impairment. The legal requirement to resolve this issue is simply too important to ignore any longer. There is a coming tidal wave of litigation stemming from offences committed under the Highway Traffic Act (DUI). And as we are discussing here, labour across the country will be seeking answers as well. Because people will appeal the definition of impairment as it currently stands and rightfully so.

Legalisation has outpaced the science surrounding cannabis. I can sympathise with many of you who would much rather have a toke than a few pints on your time off but I would encourage you to refrain until proper policy is in place. Let other members of our society martyr themselves through the legal system to better define cannabis impairment. As a pilot, it's not worth risking your employment.

That all being said I doubt I'll be required to abstain for the remaining 35 years of my career. Progress will come in time.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by pianokeys » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:58 pm

Puffpuffpass wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm
spliffs

da night

god like folks

I’m a pound 14 beers

good ole

‘ockey game.
I bet you live in YYT.
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by Puffpuffpass » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:09 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:58 pm
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm
spliffs

da night

god like folks

I’m a pound 14 beers

good ole

‘ockey game.
I bet you live in YYT.
Nope, try again, I like this game.....
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Re: Air Canada and Westjet...what a joke

Post by telex » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:52 pm

Puffpuffpass wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:09 pm
pianokeys wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:58 pm
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm
spliffs

da night

god like folks

I’m a pound 14 beers

good ole

‘ockey game.
I bet you live in YYT.
Nope, try again, I like this game.....
Leduc...
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