COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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digits_
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm
We get it from your multiple posts. You're offended.
Well yeah, I put that in the first post I made in this topic. So great deduction skills.
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm Personally, I'm sick of people offended about everything. I happily did my police check, as did my wife, for the countless hours of volunteer work we both have done.
I'm sick of the climate of fear governing decisions. It is especially bad when children are involved. Sometimes for good reason, most of the time, not at all. It's governed by fear. And here's the kicker, it is not governed by the fear of the child getting hurt, no, not at all, it is governed by the fear of getting sued if the child gets hurt. And to make it palpable, it is always packaged as an initiative to protect the child, so you can't possibly be against it, right?

And if you have the audacity of pointing that out, then you are an evil person who hates kids and apparently a pedophile as well, otherwise you wouldn't object to such a check.

It is utterly disgusting.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

To be honest, I think the best defence against inappropriate behaviour is to educate your children in such a way that they know what inappropriate behaviour is, and aren't scared to tell you about it should it occur. The concept that children are going to allow themselves to be interfered with within 20 minutes of meeting a volunteer pilot is absurd. The problem with pretending that external checks and tests makes everyone safe is it stops people from focusing on what's effective.

I didn't have to look very far to find this page, which has advice that seems eminently sensible to me:
https://www.anxioustoddlers.com/prevent-sexual-abuse/

I don't see police checks mentioned anywhere on the page.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:34 pm The concept that children are going to allow themselves to be interfered with within 20 minutes of meeting a volunteer pilot is absurd.
I was looking for the most ignorant post on avcanada I could find today. And vioala. Thanks.

If you don’t want the check or are a pedo and can’t get it than don’t do it.

To assume a child can’t get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger is so beyond the pale of ignorant I wouldn’t know how to continue.

What else are you an expert on?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat »

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Last edited by atphat on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat »

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Last edited by atphat on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

atphat wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:49 pm
photofly wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:34 pm The concept that children are going to allow themselves to be interfered with within 20 minutes of meeting a volunteer pilot is absurd.
I was looking for the most ignorant post on avcanada I could find today. And vioala. Thanks.

If you don’t want the check or are a pedo and can’t get it than don’t do it.

To assume a child can’t get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger is so beyond the pale of ignorant I wouldn’t know how to continue.

What else are you an expert on?
Someone likes their quote button.

Nobody said you can't get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger. He is talking about a pilot during a 20 minute flight in a general aviation aircraft.

Can you give me an example of any passenger being intentionally hurt or abused by the pilot in a single crew airplane during the flight?

And then the question that every pro police check poster here has ignored: Can you give me an example of a passenger getting hurt due to an incompetent/rusty/non-current/over-confident pilot?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat »

digits_ wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:01 pm
atphat wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:49 pm
photofly wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:34 pm The concept that children are going to allow themselves to be interfered with within 20 minutes of meeting a volunteer pilot is absurd.
I was looking for the most ignorant post on avcanada I could find today. And vioala. Thanks.

If you don’t want the check or are a pedo and can’t get it than don’t do it.

To assume a child can’t get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger is so beyond the pale of ignorant I wouldn’t know how to continue.

What else are you an expert on?
Someone likes their quote button.

Nobody said you can't get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger. He is talking about a pilot during a 20 minute flight in a general aviation aircraft.

Can you give me an example of any passenger being intentionally hurt or abused by the pilot in a single crew airplane during the flight?

And then the question that every pro police check poster here has ignored: Can you give me an example of a passenger getting hurt due to an incompetent/rusty/non-current/over-confident pilot?
Ya I accidentally pressed quote when I meant to edit than to then.

I don’t need to provide examples. I stand by what I said. If your are anti police checks I don’t want you anywhere near my kids. Which you won’t be.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

I think criminal record checks should be done for anyone wanting to post on this site. There are undoubtedly student pilots on here under the age of 18. They might be groomed as targets for pedophiles.

Let's think of the children.
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digits_
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

MrWings wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:20 pm I think criminal record checks should be done for anyone wanting to post on this site. There are undoubtedly student pilots on here under the age of 18. They might be groomed as targets for pedophiles.

Let's think of the children.
True, and those actually will be abused within the first 20 min of their first job at a shady operator :lol:
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

atphat wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:49 pm
To assume a child can’t get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger is so beyond the pale of ignorant I wouldn’t know how to continue.

What else are you an expert on?
I think you need to do some research on how actually to protect your children.
Nobody said you can't get hurt within 20 minutes of meeting a stranger. He is talking about a pilot during a 20 minute flight in a general aviation aircraft.
Thank you.

I'm neither anti- police checks, nor in favour of them. I think people who rely on them as their primary mechanism to protect children are lazy and ill-informed.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:26 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm
We get it from your multiple posts. You're offended.

Personally, I'm sick of people offended about everything. .
Oh my goodness. Look in the mirror, Mr "stop giving my money to BBD"!
Clearly a problem with relevance in your example.

I'm not given a choice with my taxpayer dollars but to support an incompetent CEO and Board, who can't even show up for his own layoff announcement. If you believe so much in Bombardier, give them all your retirement dough. It shouldn't be forced on the rest of us. And I've written the finance minister to tell him directly.

I am given a choice with Volunteering with children, which I have within the context of a humanitarian organization, where I do some teaching. I saw a need that was not being addressed. So rather then whine about it, that "someone else should do better" -- I have committed many hundreds of hours to volunteering.

The choice upfront there was -- Accept that a police check is required, or don't volunteer. Simple.

If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.

PS: For the uninformed: Most organizations that work with children extensively have "plan to protect" policies that are designed to attempt to protect the children under their care. I've seen these plans and helped formulate them. Police checks are only one part of this. Well run organizations take this very seriously.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:38 pm For the uninformed: Most organizations that work with children extensively have "plan to protect" policies that are designed to attempt to protect the children under their care. I've seen these plans and helped formulate them. Police checks are only one part of this. Well run organizations take this very seriously.
And why are these plans in place? Because teachers have abused students, coaches have abused kids. It is a small but realistic concern.

Once again I kindly ask the pro police check posters to provide an example of a passenger of a single crew airplane being abused by the pilot.

Compare that to the amount of single crew general aviation airplanes that crash during the year.

Will a police check for COPA Kids make *any* difference in the amount of children that get abused?
Will the required police check affect the amount of kids that can be taken up for a ride?

The negatives outweigh the positives in this case.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.
Or, if you're a COPA member, you could write to your representative on the board with your suggestions. Most membership organizations are polite enough NOT to throw suggestions back in their members’ faces with "if you don't like it, go elsewhere or run this organization yourself." They actually encourage the membership to speak up.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:52 pm
If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.
Or, if you're a COPA member, you could write to your representative on the board with your suggestions. Most membership organizations are polite enough NOT to throw suggestions back in their members’ faces with "if you don't like it, go elsewhere or run this organization yourself." They actually encourage the membership to speak up.
Excellent idea.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Longtimer »

In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat »

Longtimer wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:13 pm In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?
Exactly. Working with children without a check isn't against your human rights. The lady doth protest too much.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by jakeandelwood »

Like Digits said I'd be more worried about the pilots experience, skill and the condition of the aircraft than anything else.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by charrois »

I'm glad the posting I made has stirred up some healthy discussion on the issue. As with most things, there are obviously several points of view and everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to defend it.

When I started the discussion I wanted my initial post to remain neutral so we had a good unbiased start to the flow of discussion - but now I wanted to weigh in with my own opinion.

(TL;DR) Though there are obvious pros and cons, I personally feel the cons far outweigh the pros - in other words, I'm opposed to the new check. My reasons have been echoed by many others here, but in summary:

I have to wear two different hats here. I organize a very active COPA for Kids event, as well as volunteer as a pilot both for this event, as well as other nearby ones hosted by other COPA chapters. As a pilot, even though I personally think the check unnecessary, I'll just get it done - as others have pointed out here, the important thing is giving kids this incredible experience, not standing on principle, and I'm sufficiently involved and invested in the program that it's worth my time. But as an organizer, I know it's going to be much more difficult to get pilots, and that will do nothing except hurt the program.

First of all, the notion that "everyone else does it" for me has never been a reason to just blindly follow suit (the notion of jumping off a bridge comes to mind). Of course, if everyone else does something, there might be a good reason for it, that may or may not apply to a particular situation (if the bridge is on fire, everyone may have a good reason for jumping :-) Claiming that everyone else does it means that certainly the option should be considered, but that on its own isn't sufficient to make the decision to do so as well. And I inherently rebel against society's continuing trend towards "guilty until proven innocent". Yes, even that is another of those "everyone else does it so it must be okay" excuses. "Society is changing" only when we allow it to.

I've mentioned this new requirement to some pilots I know who fly for us. Though I know that some of you have commented positively on the requirement here (and I respect your opinion), at least of the pilots I know personally, none of them who have gotten back to me have considered it to be a good idea. Some of them are effectively neutral - rolling their eyes and muttering about "red tape", but plan to have the check done to continue to be involved - whether they'll get around to doing so before an event rolls around remains to be seen. Most alarming is the sizeable number who feel insulted that after having offered their substantial time and financial commitment to participating they are now being asked to do yet more (and being treated like a potential criminal in the process) for the "privilege" of being able to continue to do so. And I see their point. None of them have said they can't afford it, but the common thread seems to be that many will refuse "on principle". Whether I can convince them that the common good outweighs their principles remains to be seen; at the same time I also consider that they shouldn't have to abandon their principles to be involved. I've also heard from pilots saying that the only reason they were members of COPA in the first place was to participate in COPA for Kids, and this may likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They want to help, but find it discouraging that in addition to donating their time and aircraft, they also have to pay COPA membership dues and now also go through the hassle of a police check.

For those pilots who have grudgingly agreed to have the check done, some of them won't get around to it until it's too late. For most pilots, money is not the issue, but the hassle, time, and making it a priority to get done sufficiently early prior to an event certainly is.

It is also important to note that there is no legal requirement for an organization dealing with kids to have the check done. They are free to make their own decisions on whether or not they think it would be advantageous.

Along with the "everyone else does it" argument, people give examples of volunteer situations where they require it. But different sectors have different opportunities for risk. The opportunities for risk associated with a coach in a locker room for extended periods of time with kids when they're changing is very different than a busy pilot in an aircraft for 15 minutes with kids they haven't met before. I have no idea how the mind of a pedophile works, but I'd have to expect there are far easier avenues to exploit youth than becoming a pilot for COPA for Kids. And pilots are rather a close knit community already; for the most part we know each other. I'd like to hope we are welcoming to newcomers, but it's not that people walk up from out of nowhere all that often.

For decisions like this, the pros and cons need to be weighed. The cons are clear - we will lose some pilots, and with that we will be taking fewer kids. Whether it comes to pilots feeling insulted by asking for more of them than they're already giving and their refusing "on principle", or whether they'll grudgingly agree to it but just not get around to it until it's too late, there is no question that participation will go down; it certainly would have no reason to increase. What's not clear is by how much. From the initial reactions I've received, it's quite conceivable that only half of my pilots will be willing and get around to having the police check done. This means we can only offer the experience to half as many kids. But the notion that a pilot's reluctance to have a check done implies that they have something to hide would be offensive to the extreme.

So, what are the "pros" that we are gaining? The parents of the children don't care; I've never once been asked if our pilots have passed some kind of criminal check. The reputation of the industry is one of trust and respect (which I'd like to think is well-earned). After all, the parents are already trusting us with the lives of their children - what could possibly be more valuable that that? Instead, the only goal of this move is to potentially increase liability insulation against a situation that may or may not ever happen (there has not been a single case of an incident throughout the history of COPA for Kids). But is this even effective? Passing a police check only helps against known pedophiles; it does nothing against people who may have those tendencies but haven't yet been convicted. And is this the most significant risk to our liability anyway? As others have stated, although everyone's aircraft has to have passed its annual, we all know that some aircraft are just better maintained than others.. and some pilots more current and/or competent than others. Plus, even the best maintained aircraft can have issues. What about potential medical issues that may have arisen since a pilot's last medical that they might not even know about themselves? Or what about the potential for suicidal pilots? Should every pilot have to undergo a psychological evaluation before every COPA for Kids event? Where do we draw the line?

We already have a waiver that parents sign and agree to. Amongst other things, it states that they understand and accept the risk that "Serious injury or death can result from many causes, including aircraft crashes, falls, pilot error, ground crew error, engine or mechanical failure, negligent maintenance, defects in runways, interference by birds and other objects, weather conditions, contaminated fuel, or hard or forced landings. Injuries could be minor such as bruises, scratches and sprains; major such as eye injuries, broken bones and concussions; or catastrophic such as one or more of paralysis, severe burns, and death." Maybe psychological trauma should also be added to the list (perhaps it should be regardless of whether the pilots have police checks or not - there have been a couple of kids I've taken up that were quite clearly relieved when we once again landed). Or maybe more specific wording could be used simply stating that the pilots are volunteering their time, aircraft, and many expenses without compensation but have not necessarily undergone a police check and your children fly at their own risk of any actions undertaken by the pilot. I'm sure a lawyer could write up something better, and it doesn't have to sound necessarily so sinister. But the point I'm making is even if such a statement was added to the liability waiver, we would lose far fewer kids than we would with fewer pilots participating. Plus, our liability would be covered even better than by a police check, since it would encompass potential action by anyone, not just known pedophiles.

There are those who say that if even one potential incident is eliminated, it's worth it. Though I don't disagree, I question whether this is the right way to go about this. Piloting is about risk management, not risk elimination. Some pilots choose to fly twins. A case could be made that two engines is always better than one (or even that 4 is better than 2). Yet many (most?) of us fly singles because we've decided that this level of risk is acceptable. I'd argue that the same applies here. And remember, this isn't really about protecting the children, it's about the perception that we are protecting ourselves from liability. If you're the sort of person that considers that *any* risk is too much risk, it's time to turn in your pilot's license and curl up in bed.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Some may consider me naive to be thinking pedophilia isn't a serious risk worth protecting our liability against. I on the other hand consider people naive if they think the "one size fits all" solution of having a police check done is the most appropriate way of handling that risk and that this won't have at least some degree of negative impact to the program. At least this topic seems to have brought up some healthy debate on the issue. And yes, I know this message is long - if you read this far, it's because you chose to do so :-)

Dan
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C-GKNT »

I am an EAA Young Eagles (YE) Field Representative and I was the main organizer for COPA for kids (C4K) and previously YE for our local flying club. We have done 2 rallies a year since 2001 and I organized 30+ of them.

I stepped down from the position in our club last year but I still personally fly 50-60 kids a year under C4K or YE.

FWIW, Here are my thoughts.

As mentioned YE has done this for the past few years. I'm guessing either somebody did something stupid and we all have to pay the price or the lawyers got involved and we all have to pay the price. YE does do background checks but we are exempt as at this time as they are unable to do them on Canadians.

I understand the rational behind it but like airport security, I don't see how it is going to make a practical difference to anyone who is determined.

This will however make organizing C4K Rallies MUCH more difficult. The background check just adds barriers to participation in C4K. When we first started we were able to get 9-10 pilots/aircraft to participate just from our local airport. With the recent years of declining general aviation, I have had to reach out to several other clubs to get enough pilots. Sometimes, we run short of pilots due to last minute scheduling or mechanical issues. In the past, I would have sent out a mass e-mail to the other clubs requesting a few pilots a day or 2 before a rally and somebody would always step up and help out. NOW, this will be much more difficult as it is not possible to get a background check in time if pilots who wants to volunteer have not done so before.

Like it or not it exists...this is just part of modern society. Like airport security, this will be just something I will begrudgingly go through.

Glenn
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by HiFlyChick »

charrois wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:39 pm When I started the discussion I wanted my initial post to remain neutral so we had a good unbiased start to the flow of discussion - but now I wanted to weigh in with my own opinion...
Thank-you for your very well thought-out answer, charrois - I only have time to skim it at the moment, but find that you have made some good points and will come back and read it later when I have time to better consider what you've said. A very valid point about risk management, and one that certainly comes into play here...
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