COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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photofly
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:25 pm

You know, you’re right. Good luck with the programme.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:26 pm

DougRonan wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm
So let me get this straight - a certain number of you have been complaining that COPA has implemented this policy of a back ground check for the pilots - now after 95 posts I believe its been explained very well why this was done and it was not done by COPA's choice and not taken lightly - and now the same certain number of you are complaining now that we don't make it more restrictive and add back ground check for the ground crew as well - so oddly enough there is a common denominator with the same certain number of you posting on this topic - complaining!
Nice try, but no. The argument for the police check for the pilots has been explained. Based on copa's reasoning, this should also apply to the ground crew. Therefore, I think it is a fair question that the affected pilots ask you/copa why only the pilots were singled out for this decision. After all, the pilots have at least done a basic psych eval during their medical (verrrrrry basic, I admit), yet the ground crew could be psychiatric patients - since we are considering worst case scenario's. Ridiculing the question isn't answering it. Those pilots asking that question, do not want to make it more restrictive for anyone, they just want to know why pilots are being treated differently. I'd say it is much easier for a ground volunteer to sneak out for an hour and do inappropriate things with a child waiting for it's parents, than it is for a pilot to do the same thing while flying a plane.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 pm

photofly wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:29 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
That still doesn't explain what the advantage is for the pilot for flying under the copa for kids label if he takes up kids outside of that event as mentioned in the article:
This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
What kind of insurance would the pilot get extra if he already has his own liability insurance? And would he need a police check to fly his 50 year old neighbor around?
There seems to be some confusion. The insurance benefits COPA, not the pilot or the passenger.

[ insurance stuff ]
I can see your points, but it doesn't explain why COPA would want to be involved with pilots taking neighbours or colleagues up. If they want insurance coverage for the copa directors, then why get involved in the first place? After all, in that scenario, COPA doesn't do anything: the pilots find their own pax, have their own insurance and plane etc. So it implies that the pilots do get something when flying "copa for friends" instead of just taking up their friends without COPA's involvement. I just can't seem to figure out what it is. It hints at some kind of insurance advantage, but I would be interested to know what the details are.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:32 pm

I am personally done debating with you "Digits" on this subject, on this forum - I believe we have managed to get a pretty good idea of why the decisions were made and i don't believe it as much of a momentous issue as you are making it into. If you are still not satisfied - please PM me your actual name, what part of Canada you live in and most importantly your COPA membership number - and I can address your actual concerns that pertain to your first hand involvement with the CFK program.

Again I am 100% for the "New COPA" - as a bunch of you know - I of all people - had an "axe to grind with COPA in the past - but that is exactly that - in the past! There are mostly new people on the Board and the staff in the last few years and we are all trying to do great things. I am more optimistic about COPA and its future than I have been in many years. So with that said I personally am not interested in getting into lengthy, unproductive, unnecessary, negative online debates.

Thank you and I bid you good night!
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:06 pm

Wow! Talk about a tempest in a teapot! This is simple stuff, an event organizer would like to be seen to conform to the most recent norms of being responsible and accountable when their volunteers are alone with what our society (perhaps lawyers) refer to as vulnerable people. Yes, even your 50 year old neighbour could be considered a vulnerable person under some circumstances, though I doubt that they would be a passenger during a kids flying day event!

This is like airport security, no one is saying that you have to submit yourself for examination, if you choose to not participate! Your choices and freedoms are not being imposed upon, just an organization is acting organized! I know that when I board a commercial airline flight, I do not represent a threat of any kind to anyone. However, the only way everyone else on that flight knows that, is if I am security screened. A police check does not afford the same absolute assurance against a possible threat to a vulnerable person's well being, but it's a darned good start! Parent is going to trust a stranger with their child for a flight - all other things being equal, choose the pilot who willingly provided a police check to the event organizers, or the pilot who resisted having the check done?

Have any of the people posting their objection to having a police check done, ever submitted themselves for such a check? My dozenth or so is in process right now, it cost me a ten minute stop at the police station to fill out the form - nothing more.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:12 pm

DougRonan wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:32 pm
Again I am 100% for the "New COPA" - as a bunch of you know - I of all people - had an "axe to grind with COPA in the past - but that is exactly that - in the past!
I’m afraid you are going to have to forgive some of us if our opinions haven’t changed like yours have.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:06 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:06 pm
Yes, even your 50 year old neighbour could be considered a vulnerable person under some circumstances, though I doubt that they would be a passenger during a kids flying day event!
With the neighbour I was referring to the president's article where he mentioned the expansion to friend/colleagues/neighbours as a reason why it was important to require police checks. I failed (and still fail) to see how that is relevant.

The article did explain the insurance issue a little bit, but not everything. There are still some missing links. Seems like a lot of people don't care about that, but some do. If COPA hired employees and paid their pilots, I can completely understand the point of view from COPA: it's a requirement, get it done. But they are not. So transparancy towards their volunteers, or possible future volunteers, should be paramount. Let's not forget this topic was started by the organizer of a copa for kids event, who was worried about the future of his events.

But putting my objection to police checks aside, I would really like to know what the advantage would be for a pilot to take his friends up under a "copa for friends" program vs a regular flight where you take your friend up. I'm not the one who came up with that. The COPA president wrote that on his official website.

In case you missed it:

This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
On https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
PilotDAR wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:06 pm
This is like airport security, no one is saying that you have to submit yourself for examination, if you choose to not participate! Your choices and freedoms are not being imposed upon, just an organization is acting organized! I know that when I board a commercial airline flight, I do not represent a threat of any kind to anyone. However, the only way everyone else on that flight knows that, is if I am security screened. A police check does not afford the same absolute assurance against a possible threat to a vulnerable person's well being, but it's a darned good start! Parent is going to trust a stranger with their child for a flight - all other things being equal, choose the pilot who willingly provided a police check to the event organizers, or the pilot who resisted having the check done?
And that is the whole point: pilots can choose not to volunteer. And some will. For a piece of paper that won't change anything and won't protect any children. If you ask parents if they want to get a free flight with a pilot without police check or a 200 dollar flight with a pilot at an FTU who may or may not have one, I'd wager 99.9% will pick the free flight.

PilotDAR wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:06 pm
Have any of the people posting their objection to having a police check done, ever submitted themselves for such a check? My dozenth or so is in process right now, it cost me a ten minute stop at the police station to fill out the form - nothing more.
I have actually, for work. The fee was paid by work, the 4 trips I had to take were not. First RCMP office closest to me was closed for administration for 3 months during a random period of time, second RCMP office only accepted applications during 2 half days in the week, even though they were open for other administrative tasks during all business hours, so I had to come back a couple days later. And then try to make it during their small window to pick it up as well. None of this was advertised of course, as the Internet does not exist or a website does not need to be updated with such information.

So I drove for over 4 hours in total and spent another half hour inside the RCMP office. And no, I didn't have and don't have any records. No big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it took way longer than expected, and I would have given up if I didn't absolutely need it for work. Things like that are quite frustrating.

Not everyone lives in a city. I"m sure it is even more hassle for some people.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:10 pm

DougRonan wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:32 pm
I am personally done debating with you "Digits" on this subject, on this forum - I believe we have managed to get a pretty good idea of why the decisions were made and i don't believe it as much of a momentous issue as you are making it into. If you are still not satisfied - please PM me your actual name, what part of Canada you live in and most importantly your COPA membership number - and I can address your actual concerns that pertain to your first hand involvement with the CFK program.
The fact that you put more energy in avoiding that question that has been asked by multiple people, tells me that you don't know the answer either, or that you think it doesn't make sense either. And that's perfectly fine, but don't act like it is unfounded complaining. If it was just me who wanted to know, then sure, dismiss it as an online idiot trying to cause trouble. But it isn't just me.

The answer wouldn't just be for me either, it would be for everyone reading this forum who is interested in this subject. You are not going to gain any members by not answering.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 am

DougRonan wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm
So let me get this straight - a certain number of you have been complaining that COPA has implemented this policy of a back ground check for the pilots - now after 95 posts I believe its been explained very well why this was done and it was not done by COPA's choice and not taken lightly - and now the same certain number of you are complaining now that we don't make it more restrictive and add back ground check for the ground crew as well - so oddly enough there is a common denominator with the same certain number of you posting on this topic - complaining!
I can't speak for the others, but my position is unchanged. Requiring background checks for only the pilots is security theatre, nothing more. The pilots have the least opportunity and time with the kids at a CFK event, and risk their aircraft, license, etc. if they do something wrong. The ground crew has the most opportunity and time, and as many of them are non-pilots they risk very little in comparison.
photofly wrote:There's another important point here. Insurance companies don't turn around and suddenly demand police checks. Insurance companies want to see a well thought out child protection policy, and they want to see that child protection policy followed.
This is exactly where COPA has fallen down on the job, and the Insurer has accepted what it was given without applying any critical thinking. This policy is not well thought out, as it only took a few internet wonks here a few posts to point out that the ground crew is at least an equal, if not a greater, risk to the kids at a CFK event.

I accept that times are a-changin', and insurance companies will require background checks for people engaging with vulnerable people. I don't accept that these checks will get applied to the lowest risk participants, who are making the greatest contribution to the event, first.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:00 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:10 pm
DougRonan wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:32 pm
I am personally done debating with you "Digits" on this subject, on this forum - I believe we have managed to get a pretty good idea of why the decisions were made and i don't believe it as much of a momentous issue as you are making it into. If you are still not satisfied - please PM me your actual name, what part of Canada you live in and most importantly your COPA membership number - and I can address your actual concerns that pertain to your first hand involvement with the CFK program.
The fact that you put more energy in avoiding that question that has been asked by multiple people, tells me that you don't know the answer either, or that you think it doesn't make sense either. And that's perfectly fine, but don't act like it is unfounded complaining. If it was just me who wanted to know, then sure, dismiss it as an online idiot trying to cause trouble. But it isn't just me. The answer wouldn't just be for me either, it would be for everyone reading this forum who is interested in this subject. You are not going to gain any members by not answering.
Doug, as someone who argued strongly against your dismissal from the "old" COPA, i'm a little disappointed in your attitude on this topic. We asked questions of COPA time and time again about the issues with the insurance program and with respect to your ousting that they talked around, ignored, and refused to answer. Your responses here are, i'm sad to see, following the same pattern.

I ask again: Why are only the pilots required to get checked?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Kejidog » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:59 am

I have read this thread with growing dismay. this past summer I recently participated in an event where I was asked the day before the event to fly the kids. I hopped over from my field and was amazed at the positive response from the kids and parents. It was my first time participating and I was hooked. If I would have been asked for a background check I would not have been able to participate as I did not have one at the time. I really enjoyed the day and wanted to get something going at my local airport. So I started to to have regular monthly meetings and wanted to get a CFK event rolling for next spring. Unfortunately after speaking to a few owners who are copa members (diminishing daily here at my airport) about this new requirement; they expressed distain for the whole "background Check" required. I believe that by singling out the pilots and NOBODY else, copa is going to see these events wither and die on the vine.

As a new pilot and plane owner(3 year) I am seeing a copa membership being nothing more than a monthly, mostly mediocre magazine. Hiding behind a "demand" by an insurance company is a bit cowardly. As a consumer of insurance maybe they should tell the company underwriting their policy that they politely decline to be told what to do and look for another underwriter. Blindly following demands for asinine reasons is not leadership, if anything It show how easily lead the organization is. I believe this should be backed up by a clear policy for ALL volunteers across all events and clearly posted to all flights for them to decide weather they want to continue as demanded. I am still looking to do a kids event this spring, maybe we'll just do it as our flying club event. I for one carry over $1 mil in passenger liability insurance. Maybe we'll even eliminate copa from the process completely


It seems to me that we as members are not being well served by the National office, recently we contacted the National office for our flight's members list to start emailing to get ourselves active again. we were told that they can only sort members by postal code! Even though a renewal or new sign up requires a flight affiliation selection on their website. I realize that it is mostly volunteers that run events and flights maybe the paid staff at the national office could actually work to support the volunteers on the ground. As a result of putting my thoughts on this down I will be writing to my local board member and national office my thoughts on this as well
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C-GKNT » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 pm

I just changed my views on this whole thing. I am now VERY MUCH opposed to this.

I took an hour out of my day and went to the local RCMP office. I submitted my request for a VSC and waited. I was informed that because someone who has a SIMILAR birthdate to mine is on the registry, I would have to submit fingerprints to complete my VSC. This person doesn't even have to have the same name and maybe not the exact same birthday but only similar as in a re-arranging of the numbers. Seems to be that would encompass a LOT of people.

Even if I was willing to submit my fingerprints (undecided) they could not do them today anyway and I would have to return.

I have flown 50-60 kids/year for as long as I can remember. As much as I love and support the CFK program, this has stepped over the bounds of a being a "minor inconvenience". Not sure what I am going to do now.

:-(

Glenn
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by nbinont » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:24 pm

I can't believe the hassle COPA is putting you through. Especially, you - a long time volunteer and organizer. *shakes head*
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by confusedalot » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:13 pm

I guess the good citizen copa attitude is a well intentioned thing, but on the other hand, it sure shows how this society has become a psychotically paranoid environment.
People who own and fly planes MAY be child abusers?
Yeah, right. I'll bet anything that a risk analysis would yeild a lower risk than getting injured in an airplane mishap and much lower than being involved in a car accident.
Never thought that I would echo my parent's "what is this world coming to" attitude.
Paranoid. Sad.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by CanadianBird » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:00 pm

Every single association, school. volunteer opportunity that now deals with children requires a police check. I'm in a similar situation with Glenn (C-GKNT), where I went in to have one done, and subsequently had to get photographed and fingerprinted in order to prove I wasn't someone else with an alias, with a similar birthdate. I did it because I wanted to volunteer at my daughters school. The RCMP end up giving you a piece of paper, legitimizing the fingerprints, so you don't have to go in there and do the same thing every year. Now it's just once every 5.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:11 pm

This thread is STILL alive?

If your biggest issue in life is having to get a police check so you can volunteer--- you don't have much to complain about.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:59 pm

Rookie Pilot is right.

I think the subject has been tapped out: the polarized positions here are similar to those in the US of A concerning DJT/POTUS; the most divisive leader ever seen south of the border...


It is what it is. You either want to support the program or you don't. If you don't want to volunteer your time, this is an easy way out; don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

Fish or cut bait.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:07 pm

If your biggest issue in life is having to get a police check so you can volunteer--- you don't have much to complain about.
'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.' The quote is most likely due to writer and philosopher George Santayana, and in its original form it read, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Ignorant folks fail to remember Stalinist Russia or Hitlers Germany and the rights that were withdrawn and the stifling of free speech and a different opinion that ultimately lead to destruction !

I just heard that police will now have the ( unlawful ) right to pull over cars WITHOUT due cause and demand a breathalyser check

While the criminals seem to have free reign on the streets to murder, steal and destroy property, The INNOCENT pilot dutifully submits to fingerprints, a life history and basically, guilty until proven innocent stance in the hopes of providing a volunteer service to children.
You liberal weak kneed flakes aught to be ashamed of yourselves for allowing a couple of overpaid lawyers to throw YOU ( mostly honorable male pilots who are almost totally incapable of committing an offence while they are flying an airplane ! ) under the bus for the purpose of political correctness !!!

JUST SAY NO !
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by PilotDAR » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:22 pm

right to pull over cars WITHOUT due cause and demand a breathalyser check
Hey, often times, when I buy a ticket, and go through security to ride in someone's big jet, I get randomly selected for a secondary inspection. It's random, no due cause (I did not trigger the walk through machine). If I can be subjected to repeated random examinations, and have no choice, I can be okay with police having expanded opportunity to prevent drunk driving. We're randomly selected for RIDE checks anyway.

As often is the case, a few bad people have complicated life for everyone else. The standard of behavior, and examination are ramped up, to preclude liability. We did it to ourselves, who's to blame?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:18 pm

As often is the case, a few bad people have complicated life for everyone else. The standard of behavior, and examination are ramped up, to preclude liability. We did it to ourselves, who's to blame?
The liberal system of letting criminals off and revictimizing the INNOCENT is what is happening . Case in point, Folks coming from south and central America to the USA to Canada are MOSTLY economic migrants, burning their identification and lying to customs agents to enter AMERICA and CANADA ILLEGALLY. They are being welcomed by the idiot in Ottawa and ANY Canadian who speaks against ILLEGAL migration is a racist etc etc Do you recall Marissa Shem a LEGAL immigrant killed by one of Trudeaus favoured immigrants? DO NOT blame innocent law abiding Canadians for the shit show that is befalling us now !

What about our law enforcers? Have you heard about the RCMP who turned a couple of druggies into "accomplices" in a terrorist act on the lawn of the Victoria Legislature? NOW I know WHY my honourable father called the cops PIGS ! What about the tazering of the immigrant in the Vancouver airport and the lying of the cops thereafter to protect their hide?

Its the legal law abiding Pilot that is now being fingered ( literally by fingerprinting) BECAUSE of all the above mentioned atrocities by the guilty not the innocent !
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:33 pm

Hey, often times, when I buy a ticket, and go through security to ride in someone's big jet, I get randomly selected for a secondary inspection. It's random, no due cause (I did not trigger the walk through machine).

I was sent to Las Angeles, by a friend to look at a couple of tiger moths, a couple of weeks after the bombing/bombing threat of the terminal at LA on an EL AL flight ( I think it was cheapest for him LOL ) They took me in to interview me ( 2 of them) then a row of machines to go through my baggage, then physically walk me to the boarding gate, then I put my shoes back on. That was not theatre that was for real. What you have nowadays is simply THEATRE for appeasing the masses and giving the slimy politicians an excuse to say they have done something !


The very fact you got RANDOMLY selected without due cause for increased checks proves it is both theatre and political correctness and a JOKE !

RANDOMLY pulling someone over on a highway is NOT for getting the bad guys off the highway either !
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:49 pm

Well, at least we put the COPA pilot checks thing to bed...

:lol:
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:29 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:59 pm
It is what it is. You either want to support the program or you don't. If you don't want to volunteer your time, this is an easy way out; don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
I support the CFK program, and I support security/safety procedures that are effective. I don't support security theatre, that satisfies someone's desire to "do something" when it doesn't address the issues.

Require security checks for all CFK volunteers, or don't require security checks at all. Until this is fixed, I will be standing down from the program.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:46 am

"...I will be standing down from the program...

That is unfortunate. However, from the December issue of COPA Flight:

"In the end it boiled down to a combination of our lawyers and insurance providers both telling us that there was not much of a future for COPA for Kids without some sort of industry-standard, recognized vetting of those working directly in positions with the kids."

So, our invective should not be aimed at the personnel at COPA HQ: I think they're just as pi**ed as we are. However, if we want to continue exposing children to the joy of flight, I think we'll just have to "grit our teeth" and get on with it.

In one sense, we should be thankful that only the pilots have been singled out: consider that we "drivers airframe" constitute but a small part of the personnel required to mount "COPA for Kids". Whether a 2-airplane event or a 20-airplane event, there still exists the need for upwards of a dozen-and-a-half people in the background greeting kids, sorting kids, enrolling kids, briefing kids, escorting kids, boarding kids, deplaning kids, etc etc. Think what would happen if a security check was required for all and many said "Eff it!".

To paraphrase "Joey" in the movie 'Shane": 'Come back, Airframe; come back!" :D
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:00 am

The slower one goes on the highway, the safer it is . I suggest that ( due to liability and "safety" concerns ) that ALL motorized vehicles are to be speed limited to 20 KPH on all highways! There will be folks that say that its the way it is going, you either drive 20 kph or don't drive at all.. Others will say that we need to do this to stop global warming. Remember folks, driving or owning a bicycle or breathing are ALL a privilege, after we submit and pay! Just as the frog is happily sitting in the bowl of heating water, The Canadian is happily watching his/her country being swallowed up by socialist/marxist/communist ideologies and freedoms and common sense and the rule of law is being thrown by the wayside!

The issue of getting a police check on your history is not so much about inconvenience or unfairness, it is more about the above mentioned elephants in the room !
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