MERGED power curve / floats posts

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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:40 pm

For those "holier than thou" pilots out there that look down on pilots who use the backside of the power/drag curve, you may be guilty of doing just the same at low altitude no less !
If your trusty steed rotates at a book value speed below max endurance speed, ( most types) you have just done a take-off immediately onto the backside of the curve!!
You probably don't even think about it because 1) You are in ground effect and more importantly 2) you have excess power over drag ( you are not far into the backside curve) and can either climb out or increase in airspeed or BOTH !
If you took off and immediately reduced power to equilibrium ( thrust equals drag) and thereafter pulled pitch, you would descent, and if you added power ( with a slight pitch up ) you would decelerate without climbing.

For those doing slow flight practice ( you are behind the power curve ) WHY does your instructor both demonstrate AND ask you to be proficient in it IF you think it is not to be utilized?m
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm

What kind of aircraft do you test fly?
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm

What kind of aircraft do you test fly?
The last one was a Bearcat
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Sockpuppet
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by Sockpuppet » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:19 pm

If you mean the ultralight, then I'm sure the owner thinks you are awesome.
If it's a $2 million warbird, then I suspect that you would be out of a job if the owner knew you were trying things in his plane "for shits and giggles".
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm

If it's a $2 million warbird, then I suspect that you would be out of a job if the owner knew you were trying things in his plane "for shits and giggles".
WHO said I would do anything for shits and giggles? Here MY words
The V-1 cut and stop distance is not available in these conditions WHY do it at all? Because you must land due to an emergency OR because you want to for shits and giggles or practice?
It was a Question dimwit !
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm

It takes a good ( seasoned ) pilot to do it well, and yes, I agree, it is mostly done in glassy water conditions, if you see a pilot do it in windy conditions, I highly suspect he is doing it for show !
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:40 pm

If you're already that close to lifting off, what's the point of this "technique"? Is it due to a unique characteristic of the particular aircraft?
Its not "that" close, and if you have ever tried to get a heavily laden A/C off the water ( not highly powered and without flaps) in glassy smooth conditions, it feels like you are getting away from a million suction cups!
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digits_
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by digits_ » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:41 pm

aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:37 pm
It takes a good ( seasoned ) pilot to do it well, and yes, I agree, it is mostly done in glassy water conditions, if you see a pilot do it in windy conditions, I highly suspect he is doing it for show !
Crosswinds?
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:51 pm

Another technique I have used ( And it would likely be controversial here) is to shoot for Vy or better in ground effect, then zoom through Vx and below as you climb through the down wash from the winds at the end of a lake with hilly terrain beyond. Sometimes, spending time at Vx in the downwash for soo long is worse than avoiding it until you can shoot through it, thereby minimizing your time in it.

Another technique that I have used on approach where the approach slope is too steep for a backside approach is to come in at a steep angle with min speed and power, then apply up to 80% +- power for flaring at the exact right moment. I highly suggest NOT to try this because timing is crucial and I did this kind of landing ( C-185 floats) decades ago when I was younger and braver! I would suggest this is a more common technique for wheel planes to "cushion" the landing!
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm

Crosswinds?
Yes, I recall using that technique in a light to moderate crosswind ( NOT gusty) when taking off tight to an island ( in basic calm) to stay out of the rollers coming down the long lake. You really must know the wind as you hit the end of the island , because the combination of that increase in windspeed and the rocking rollers, can assist you, with your up-wind wing raised, It can also quickly leave you with a submerged A/C. Right after take-off, the upwind wing gets lowered to slight wing low position ( in case a wind lull decides to set you on the rollers!) Again, I suggest that this technique is not for the green float pilot. As a rule, I have avoided taking off and landing in big crosswind rollers on a big lake. ( Too risky)
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ekg
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by ekg » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:12 pm

hotdog1 wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:39 am
I like to use a log or a nicely sloped, submerged rock like a ramp to get airborne. The rock obviously has to be at the correct location of the lake and not be too pointy, don’t want to damage the floats too much.but you will get off the water nicely if you have enough skill. You might also need to add some extra flap cause you will be at slow speed and behind the power curve-don’t add power if you are behind the curve cause you DO NOT want to slow down at this point of take off. Just practice a bit
You can also get a friend to tow your float plane with their motorboat. You can use the wake to help you get airborne. Works great when there's no rock or log that you can use as a ramp.
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm

Another thing I avoid is landing in a tailwind anywhere near cats paws. Its hard enough to time your landing flare into wind near dark cats paws, I cannot recall the technique I used. Anyone here have a technique they would like to share?
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shimmydampner
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:24 pm

aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 am
when I have near lift off speed, I would lower the lifted float partially into the water while at the same time, briskly pitch the A/C up to slap the aft part of the floats onto the water, thereby "kicking" the floatplane into the air.
aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:40 pm
Its not "that" close, and if you have ever tried to get a heavily laden A/C off the water ( not highly powered and without flaps) in glassy smooth conditions, it feels like you are getting away from a million suction cups!
I have more hours in C206 float planes than I care to remember so I'm familiar with that feeling. But I'm more curious about this technique, in particular the last bits. So you get to "near lift off" speed, but not "that close" before putting the rolled float back in to the drag of the water and slapping the heels? I mean, if you're to the point of almost flying but not really, and you've got one float out of the water, why put it back in to the million suction cups? Why not just slap one float heel, if that's the key to the whole getting airborne process? Do you do this strictly in the Aeronca as a result of some peculiar aircraft handling characteristic, or do you advocate this across the board? I've never flown that machine so I don't know what it's like, but I've encountered other such home grown techniques with other types I've flown on floats and I've never really found them to be actually of much merit. Seemed to me to be more of a sort of placebo effect thing going on where guys thought they were doing some inventive technique that was next level. Some seemed goofy but benign, while others seemed downright ham fisted. None of them seemed to provide better results than just flying with precision and finesse in an airplane that you're in tune with.
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:26 pm

You can also get a friend to tow your float plane with their motorboat. You can use the wake to help you get airborne.
Im sure its been tried !!

Pilots have tried to stir up the water in the backtrack plow to get er unstuck ( I don't know how helpful this is ) Other pilots frantically stay on the step for miles and miles, in a semi-panic state trying to get airborne. They either run down their fuel enough to lighten the load, run into some ripples and wind or burn up their engine before giving up :lol:

DAR must remember when the Newbie gang were towing 3 water-skiers around the tight bay on Lk St John/ Orillia Aviation in the distant past with a C-180?

I have had some friends hold onto my fathers Aeronca via a rope in early spring up near Purdy Ontario in order to shorten my T.O. distance,,,, Found out later he was bedridden with Pneumonia for his efforts!
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:42 pm

I have more hours in C206 float planes than I care to remember so I'm familiar with that feeling. But I'm more curious about this technique, in particular the last bits. So you get to "near lift off" speed, but not "that close" before putting the rolled float back in to the drag of the water and slapping the heels? I mean, if you're to the point of almost flying but not really, and you've got one float out of the water, why put it back in to the million suction cups? Why not just slap one float heel, if that's the key to the whole getting airborne process? Do you do this strictly in the Aeronca as a result of some peculiar aircraft handling characteristic, or do you advocate this across the board? I've never flown that machine so I don't know what it's like, but I've encountered other such home grown techniques with other types I've flown on floats and I've never really found them to be actually of much merit. Seemed to me to be more of a sort of placebo effect thing going on where guys thought they were doing some inventive technique that was next level. Some seemed goofy but benign, while others seemed downright ham fisted. None of them seemed to provide better results than just flying with precision and finesse in an airplane that you're in tune with.
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The operative word here is "partially" Not to the point of causing ANY perceivable drag ( less than 10% float area? ) but to the point of levelling the wings enought for max vertical lift AND the ability for BOTH float aft keels to strike the water. The resulting airborne effect is further back on the backside than other techniques I have tried. I don't recall trying this technique on larger A/C like the C-185 with manual flaps

To me it was simply an extension of the lift the float technique, where you do not lift off with the 1 float way in the air but rather to bring the wings a little more level. As the float begins to drop back down, I normally apply 3/4 flap ( C-185) to "pop" it into the air, then bleed the flaps back to 10 degrees in ground effect. ( lesser flaps below gross) It was fun and felt good when it worked out well !
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pelmet
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by pelmet » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:16 am

aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:41 pm
What kind of aircraft do you test fly?
The last one was a Bearcat
It is an interesting looking aircraft. Rotax 582? Never had a chance to fly one. What kind of recommended approach speed versus STOL approach speed?
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:03 am

It is an interesting looking aircraft. Rotax 582?


Its got an 0-540 Lycoming
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aeroncasuperchief
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:08 am

For clarification, For a 20-40 degree crosswind ( from the nose) take-off in moderate/gusty wind conditions, the upwind wing is always kept low, even in the climb-out until at an airspeed and height well past inadvertent touchdown again. Same with approach and landing !
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by Sockpuppet » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:43 am

Maybe you mean a bearhawk, not a bearcat?
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Sockpuppet
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by Sockpuppet » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:53 am

aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:28 pm
If it's a $2 million warbird, then I suspect that you would be out of a job if the owner knew you were trying things in his plane "for shits and giggles".
WHO said I would do anything for shits and giggles? Here MY words
The V-1 cut and stop distance is not available in these conditions WHY do it at all? Because you must land due to an emergency OR because you want to for shits and giggles or practice?
It was a Question dimwit !
Of the inconsistencies I pointed out in your posts, that's what you took from it? Ummmm OK, I guess I'm a dimwit.
Does that change the fact that I call bullshit on you flying backside approaches using ground speed as a reference, or that you claim you do them because they are stable(against what your "heroes" say)?
No, no it doesn't.
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trey kule
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by trey kule » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:42 am

Relax Sockster, you have been trolled. All he is looking for is a response so he can ponificate and share his wisdom.
You are being lectured on aerodynamics from someone who joined AvCanada about 10 months ago....as an AME. And who has since morphed into a self certified test pilot lecturing to the unwashed on aerodynamics, and more recently, as a sage float pilot.
The guy is amazing. I, for one, look forward to learning from his disproving literally everybody else’s opinions. Check out his thread on floats where he lectures to those like Chuck on how to fly floats. You just gotta appreciate him.
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Last edited by trey kule on Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maynard
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by Maynard » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:08 pm

aeroncasuperchief wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:59 am
In Fort Frances, I once debated with a fellow pilot
As a Fort boy, it bugs me you had that conversation there.
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Re: The backside of the power curve

Post by Meatservo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:58 pm

I once knew a guy who could fit three normal-sized oranges in his mouth at once. He said he once actually managed to get four of them in there but he needed a doctor to help him extricate the last one before he could get the first three back out.
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trey kule
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by trey kule » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:53 pm

What if....one used both a rock as a ramp to launch, and towed the plane with a boat.
Then lifted one float out first?

I have never tried a rock to launch, but I know several pilots who have used them as brakes to slow down when taxiing or landing on floats.
Always wanted to try towing a float plane on take off, but that pesky prop makes it just so hard to crawl up and release the tow rope while on the step. I am pretty certain only someone who is a self certified ultra light test pilot, and very experienced aeronica float pilot could actually do that.

These threads are fun.
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Last edited by trey kule on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hotdog1
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Re: Float flying techniques for the seasoned bush pilot

Post by hotdog1 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:57 pm

trey kule wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:53 pm
What if....one used both a rock as a ramp to launch, and towed the plane with a boat.
Then lifted one float out first?

I have never tried a rock to launch, but I know several pilots who have used them as brakes when taxiing or landing on floats.
Always wanted to try towing, but that pesky prop makes it just so hard to crawl up and release the tow rope while on the step. I am pretty certain only someone who is a self certified ultra light test pilot, and very experienced aeronica float pilot could actually do that.

These threads are fun.
Rocks do make good brakes, I think your friends that use them as brakes are just using them backwards. Just use them from the other side, any seasoned float pilot knows that.
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