Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

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Duukar
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Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Duukar » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:00 pm

Does anyone else feel a growing sense of betrayal over the delay in implementing duty regulation changes?

There is a problem. They have admitted it by nearly pulling the trigger on changes twice since 2014. Four years later we still wait.

Money above safety. Shameful.

When an accident happens due to fatigue I hope Transport Canada is prepared to be buried under lawsuits galore.

Transport Canada is supposed to govern and protect us in an industry frought with danger. Instead they are beholden to money.

I'm sick to my stomach.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by daedalusx » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm

Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Easy to say, but harder to do.

How tired is too tired? Often you don't know until it's too late. Fatigue is sneaky and insidious.

Before take-off you feel fine. Now you're half way to destination and start nodding off. Can't exactly pull over on that cloud for a short nap.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Inverted2 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:39 pm

Airlines donate $$$ to political parties. Political parties delay implementation to appease their donors. Airlines are opposed to the new rules. More pilots = Less $$$ for companies.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by youhavecontrol » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:43 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
What does that actually look like practically? How do you think an employer might respond to that? Will they just assume you're hung-over or irresponsible, because nobody else says "no"? There's always someone willing to push their limits, against their own better judgement or to please their company... that's why fatigued pilot mess up in the first place. Obviously their judgement or company pressure failed them. The law gives pilots an 'out' so the company can't touch them.

I used to work in the oilfield. At 19 years old, I worked 16 hours every day for 33 days straight. I didn't even realize how tired I was getting and just thought it was normal for the industry... until I saw a colleague die. He made an operational mistake due to fatigue and our company had a massive law suit and major changes after that. You think at 19 I had the guts to tell my boss to piss off... when I was desperate for money to pay for my flying? No, and neither did the kid that died.

It's absolutely not as simple as you think it is. Such a facile and snide comment like this is an insult to people that actually face this type of operational pressure and have suffered from it.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by co-joe » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:23 pm

It's pretty clear to me that Transport Canada will do anything to avoid admitting fatigue is a factor in any aviation accidents where the existing duty rest CARs weren't violated. This means if you meet the CARs, you aren't fatigued, ever, under any circumstances, and it's all your fault.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by digits_ » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:25 pm

youhavecontrol wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:43 pm
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
What does that actually look like practically? How do you think an employer might respond to that? Will they just assume you're hung-over or irresponsible, because nobody else says "no"? There's always someone willing to push their limits, against their own better judgement or to please their company... that's why fatigued pilot mess up in the first place. Obviously their judgement or company pressure failed them. The law gives pilots an 'out' so the company can't touch them.

I used to work in the oilfield. At 19 years old, I worked 16 hours every day for 33 days straight. I didn't even realize how tired I was getting and just thought it was normal for the industry... until I saw a colleague die. He made an operational mistake due to fatigue and our company had a massive law suit and major changes after that. You think at 19 I had the guts to tell my boss to piss off... when I was desperate for money to pay for my flying? No, and neither did the kid that died.

It's absolutely not as simple as you think it is. Such a facile and snide comment like this is an insult to people that actually face this type of operational pressure and have suffered from it.
This!



Also, most (all?) operators nowadays have an SMS system. I believe most SMS systems have an option to report unsafe working conditions anonimously. If you have that, use it. Too many pilots complain without first trying this option. It's what it is designed for.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Duukar » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:27 am

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
Spoken like a guy who has never flown night cargo or Medevac.

These kind of jobs the fatigue follows you around into your personal life. Fit to fly but a zombie day to day. Eventually it catches up with you.

I'm lucky, I work for a company that provides 12 sick days a year and they can be used for fatigue.

Some relief from the needlessly challenging schedules which are completely legal would do a world of good for our bodies and our mental health.

You are thinking very short term. Fit to fly or not. Long term these type of scheduled are going to do damage.

There IS a problem. Transport admits it. Science proves it. Why are you so blinded?
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by FL007 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:14 am

Duukar wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:27 am
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
There IS a problem. Transport admits it. Science proves it. Why are you so blinded?
Just as in denial as management that's why. It's legal now, so if you're fatigued that's your problem.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by dhc# » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:38 am

And once the new watered down to appease industry fatigue rules do come in to effect, isn't TC going to allow company's to implement some sort of BS fatigue management program to get around the rules...basically set up some sort of internal company training program so you will be "educated" about fatigue (basically telling you how to sleep/wake/nap) then all will be magically fixed with your circadian rhythm so you won't be tired and can work up to the max hours allowed by the new rules...what a joke :roll:
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Lightchop » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:00 am

Duukar wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:27 am
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
Spoken like a guy who has never flown night cargo or Medevac.

These kind of jobs the fatigue follows you around into your personal life. Fit to fly but a zombie day to day. Eventually it catches up with you.

I'm lucky, I work for a company that provides 12 sick days a year and they can be used for fatigue.

Some relief from the needlessly challenging schedules which are completely legal would do a world of good for our bodies and our mental health.

You are thinking very short term. Fit to fly or not. Long term these type of scheduled are going to do damage.

There IS a problem. Transport admits it. Science proves it. Why are you so blinded?
Rough, only 12?
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by co-joe » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:47 am

dhc# wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:38 am
And once the new watered down to appease industry fatigue rules do come in to effect, isn't TC going to allow company's to implement some sort of BS fatigue management program to get around the rules...basically set up some sort of internal company training program so you will be "educated" about fatigue (basically telling you how to sleep/wake/nap) then all will be magically fixed with your circadian rhythm so you won't be tired and can work up to the max hours allowed by the new rules...what a joke :roll:
They'll just put out ops specs that allow you to not follow the already ineffective rules.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:36 am

I’ve flown medevac. I’ve refused to fly because of fatigue. No point in putting four lives at risk to (maybe) save one.

Surely after a few years of flying you can anticipate what your performance is going to be like. If you’re jumping or reacting to things, slurring speech, making small errors, nodding off... you’re in fatigue territory. Before you go flying, you should be prepared to do a missed approach and diversion and deal with a critical emergency for the amount of fuel you have in your tanks. If you feel you can’t do that, don’t go.

You might very well be within the new duty time regs and unfit to fly. Legal isn’t always safe.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Duukar » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:49 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:00 am
Duukar wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:27 am
daedalusx wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm
Don't fly if you're unfit to fly. It's that simple.
Spoken like a guy who has never flown night cargo or Medevac.

These kind of jobs the fatigue follows you around into your personal life. Fit to fly but a zombie day to day. Eventually it catches up with you.

I'm lucky, I work for a company that provides 12 sick days a year and they can be used for fatigue.

Some relief from the needlessly challenging schedules which are completely legal would do a world of good for our bodies and our mental health.

You are thinking very short term. Fit to fly or not. Long term these type of scheduled are going to do damage.

There IS a problem. Transport admits it. Science proves it. Why are you so blinded?
Rough, only 12?
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm.

The last job I had was doing Medevac in the mountains and we had ZERO sick days. Just a last minute swap with the on call guy. We had to fight for that. So if you are fatigued you do the swap and sit on call. If a call comes you lose a days pay. The accounting behind losing a days pay was as shifty as can be. So now you get to choose rent or groceries.

The rules are fine as they are though........
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Lightchop » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:38 pm

No it wasn't. 12 is not a lot IMO but I guess it's better than what you had before so that's a good thing.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Mach1 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:44 pm

Duukar wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:00 pm
Does anyone else feel a growing sense of betrayal over the delay in implementing duty regulation changes?

There is a problem. They have admitted it by nearly pulling the trigger on changes twice since 2014. Four years later we still wait.

Money above safety. Shameful.

When an accident happens due to fatigue I hope Transport Canada is prepared to be buried under lawsuits galore.

Transport Canada is supposed to govern and protect us in an industry frought with danger. Instead they are beholden to money.

I'm sick to my stomach.
Where did you come to think that the government was your friend or there to help the people? My whole life, the government has only helped themselves and big business... it's a rather famous saying that one of the biggest lies out there is, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by confusedalot » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm

Sad to say, must agree with the above post. I thought I had a not spectacular but still pretty good job at TC, and that is after a bankruptcy, looking for work.
Was expecting a maybe routine and slightly boring bureaucratic job, but still, doing what the job requires and so what, life goes on, live and let live. Somebody has to do the job, and I was not adverse to doing those basic things that the public requires.

I cannot even explain the hellhole that the public service is. I would need a conference room and many days to even convey the disconnected, toxic, and quite frankly, at times evil place it has come to be.

I "escaped" after 5 years.............

Life can indeed be an interesting journey. Sometimes, you don't want to see some things. It should not be like that. In a perfect world, it should be exactly the opposite.

I will never work for the government of canada again.

Trouble is......no matter what government you elect, the public service stays in place.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:03 pm

In my three and a half year legal battle with T.C. the level of evil corrupt top management was unbelievable.

It was corrupt from the bottom to the top of their management system.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by bigEh » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 pm

dhc# wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:38 am
And once the new watered down to appease industry fatigue rules do come in to effect, isn't TC going to allow company's to implement some sort of BS fatigue management program to get around the rules...basically set up some sort of internal company training program so you will be "educated" about fatigue (basically telling you how to sleep/wake/nap) then all will be magically fixed with your circadian rhythm so you won't be tired and can work up to the max hours allowed by the new rules...what a joke :roll:
I feel this fatigue management system is slowly being groomed for my own company. Management has made it clear they don't see a problem with the way things are now. So they are preemptively implementing a way to circumnavigate the new regs. Show that they are doing something "proactive". The only thing is, they have been clear that they don't see a problem with a 24 hour on call schedule that has you flying overnight on a 14 hour duty day and then doing that again the next night, followed by a 24 hour rest then a 14 hour duty day starting at 6am. I have been told directly when opposing this type of system that it was my own fault for not being able to manage my fatigue. I was told that it wasn't an issue for the senior capts. They have never been fatigued so how could I? Maybe so, but how about the 250 FO who just got their first job. They are young and might want to go have a life.
And the kicker for me. When marijuana became legal, they implement a strict no-tolerance policy, detailing the insidious dangers of smoking drugs on your days off. How dare a person risk the lives of their unwitting passengers by having a puff. You had better be ready to fly on no sleep though.

It is just baffling to me that we aren't following the science. If TC cares a wit about safety, then they would implement the new regs.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by lownslow » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am

TC has done their part, the ball is now in the federal government's court.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Mostly Harmless » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:29 am

confusedalot wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm
Sad to say, must agree with the above post. I thought I had a not spectacular but still pretty good job at TC, and that is after a bankruptcy, looking for work.
Was expecting a maybe routine and slightly boring bureaucratic job, but still, doing what the job requires and so what, life goes on, live and let live. Somebody has to do the job, and I was not adverse to doing those basic things that the public requires.

I cannot even explain the hellhole that the public service is. I would need a conference room and many days to even convey the disconnected, toxic, and quite frankly, at times evil place it has come to be.

I "escaped" after 5 years.............

Life can indeed be an interesting journey. Sometimes, you don't want to see some things. It should not be like that. In a perfect world, it should be exactly the opposite.

I will never work for the government of canada again.

Trouble is......no matter what government you elect, the public service stays in place.
Thank you for making a point I failed to make in the brevity of my statement. There are a lot of really good people working in the public sector but they work in a system that does not allow for individuality.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by Boreas » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:43 pm

lownslow wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am
TC has done their part, the ball is now in the federal government's court.
How so? Honest question.

Whats the process look like for moving this forward?
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by lownslow » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:38 pm

Boreas wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:43 pm
lownslow wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:49 am
TC has done their part, the ball is now in the federal government's court.
How so? Honest question.

Whats the process look like for moving this forward?
This is off the top of my head so might not be perfect but Transport Canada publishes their proposal in the Canada Gazette I, takes government feedback before publishing it in Canada Gazette II where it either sinks or swims. My understanding is a shoot-down at the Gazette II phase (where I believe it is now) is a big deal. They can’t just re-submit until it passes, they have to basically re-write the whole thing from the basic concept on up.

I’m not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take the above with a grain of salt. If you want to know all of the info regarding the process as precisely as possible it’s all available online.
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by alkaseltzer » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 pm

Inverted2 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:39 pm
Airlines donate $$$ to political parties. Political parties delay implementation to appease their donors. Airlines are opposed to the new rules. More pilots = Less $$$ for companies.
Who does ALPA donate to?
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Re: Transport Canada - Betrayal and fatigue

Post by goldeneagle » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:10 pm

Duukar wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:00 pm
Transport Canada is supposed to govern and protect us in an industry frought with danger.
You totally misunderstand the mandate of TC. They are not there to protect you. TC has a mandate to protect the public. When you step into an airplane to fly passengers for revenue, TC doesn't give a hoot about you, the mandated concern for TC is the passengers you are carrying, and the public on the ground over which you will fly.
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