The government is concerned...

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goingnowherefast
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:44 pm

If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there, especially for the family cost. Nobdoy wants to suffer from AIDS...Aviation Induced Divorcd Syndrome. That'll take a lot out of the retirement fund.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by jakeandelwood » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:45 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:39 pm
mmm..bacon wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:19 pm
^ F@#K all that Sh!t! Indusrty created the looming headache by paying poorly in the first place, and now they want the taxpayers to bail them out, by increasing the supply of pilots, so that they can continue to pay poorly??!! FTS! How about salaries going up to attract more people? You know, just like how a capitalist economy is supposed to work!

My cynical side notes that the picture accompanying the article is of one of Flair's 737s; co-incidental, I'm sure, that Flair is based in Kelowna, and it is the (Conservative) MP for Kelowna who is bleating about bailouts.
Your thoughts make sense except other parts of the government are screaming that airfare in Canada is already too expensive. You are dreaming if you think aviation is a high profit industry. The margins for sked operations are terrible.

TG
Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.
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JasonE
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by JasonE » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:16 am

jakeandelwood wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:45 pm
Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.
This. I found an article where it said a 1950's ticket from Chicago to Phoenix was $138 round trip. Using the bank of Canada index from 1955 to today, it would be $1303! (USD) We can fly roundtrip to Europe for that and sometimes less these days.
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BMLtech
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by BMLtech » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:04 am

When I left my aviation career after 25 years as an AME, I was pretty much at the top of the pay scale at a major airline. Then one of my sons buddies got his journeyman electrician ticket, and made more per hour on his first day on the job then I did after 25 years, and no midnight shifts. Go figure.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by Lightchop » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:08 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:44 pm
If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there, especially for the family cost. Nobdoy wants to suffer from AIDS...Aviation Induced Divorcd Syndrome. That'll take a lot out of the retirement fund.
If all you care for is low six figures, a regional is just fine then. And as people leave to go to AC or something you climb the list. If I stick around at Jazz within the next 5 years I'll be in a pretty great spot.
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confusedalot
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by confusedalot » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:19 pm

bearitus wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:07 pm
confusedalot wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:16 pm
Read through the posts and the common theme is shit pay.
I agree, pay is not where it should be.
But I am curious though. Those who posit that going to aviation salaries, exactly what do you do for a living.
Timing is everything and my timing by birth put me into the bad old days of multiple bankruptcies and recessions.
So I ended up doing semi skilled non aviation jobs that where above minimum wage but nowhere near great. Salaries where actually lower than flying a plane, and although they were 5 day a week jobs, the shift element remained, so there was no benefit in being outside of aviation.
One of the jobs were for a flight simulator manufacturer. Starting salary was actually slightly more than a starting engineer.
So I am genuinely curious where these non aviation better jobs actually are.
Sure, if you are a qualified electrician or plumber, or a nurse, or a software engineer, money is better. You have skills so your income is higher. If you have no skills, well, minimum wage is all you get. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you should not even think of flying as a career.
The guys I know, and that would be most of them, are living very very well. 300K. But that figure does not come right away. So you will have to live on 200K, 150K, 100K, and 50K for a few years.
Overall, salaries in Canada no matter what you do for a living, are pitifully lower than the US. Good buddy of mine who won the green card lottery has worked for American for ages. He made 390K last year. Flying a small 737.
Sure don't advocate slinging bags to chase a dream, but at the end of the day, life outside of aviation is not quite as good for the average Canadian as some would advocate.
I partially agree with this post. Aviation has a huge upside especially if you stick it out to get to the high pay. I think what most pilots on here are unhappy about is how long it takes to get to a decent wage taking into account the amount of money and training required to get an entry level job. There is no reason why a regional airline FO with an ATPL should be making less than a full time Uber driver in Toronto. Just as a reference, my first job out of university as a software engineer with no experience paid over double what I am making after 4 years of full time flying.
Good information.

However.............

Now, I was an experienced pilot, and was given a little too much responsibility that I did not want at CAE in 2001, after 9/11, and at TRU simulation, in 2016 as a retirement job. (Appears that a pilot will wave a magic wand and fix everything just like god almighty in these places LOL!!!!)
But anyway, drifting off topic.....
The young out of school software engineers were paid 50K in 2001, and about 60K in 2016.
I was paid more than them, but not by much.
So, starting salaries are naturally going to be higher for someone who did 4 years of university, but as you know, potential income over the long term is, sadly, lower than a pilot who sticks it out over a few years.
Been through a hell of a lot of tribulations in this business, but looking back, I possibly would not have been any better off after 36 years of flying.
Unless of course, I managed to get myself into google...... .
My silly past career is in no way a success, because it certainly is not, I have however seen the world, flown big fancy airplanes and at the very least has given me a total net worth that is still sadly above the Canadian average.
Not the best, but still better than many.
For those who are considering the business; as Bill Gates said before a bunch of university graduates, life is not fair, and anyone who says luck played no factor in their success is a liar.
Same for airplanes; it can go either way.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:43 pm

JasonE wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:16 am
jakeandelwood wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:45 pm
Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.
This. I found an article where it said a 1950's ticket from Chicago to Phoenix was $138 round trip. Using the bank of Canada index from 1955 to today, it would be $1303! (USD) We can fly roundtrip to Europe for that and sometimes less these days.
Bus ticket from Chicago to Phoenix on the Greyhound right now for $380 us. I'll bet you can find a flight from for cheaper
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confusedalot
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by confusedalot » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:19 pm

These posts are fantastic. Every single service and manufacturer the world over increase their fees, and consequently their employee salaries.
Air travel.....noooooo.................Seems like the aviation gurus find that the race to the bottom is the way to go, all the while collecting multimillion dollar salaries.
And the government is worried :lol:
Nope, public servants and top level air operator leaders are cut from the same cloth. As long as their asses are secure, could not give a shit about anybody or anything.
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shimmydampner
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:29 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:44 pm
If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there
You might want to check your math. A 50 year career as an electrician making $100k/year will gross you $5 million. Using the slightly out of date pay scale info I have, some quick math shows a 40 year stint at AC as an FO for 10 years, lowest paying narrow body captain for 20 years, and then wide body captain for the last 10 will earn you over $7 million. And I'd be willing to wager you could do much better than that if you were so inclined.
If I were to do it again, I would have tried to get my foot in that door five years ago at the first signs of things heating up. Now I just kick myself when I hear of my buddies who tried to convince me to go, now making $200k+. You're crazy if you think that in the grand scheme of things that's a "medium" living. The average salary in this country is $50k after all.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:40 pm

Except you only get 40 years at AC if you happen to get through training, ramp, 703, regional by age 20. 25 at the oldest.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:59 pm

Sure. I know plenty that have done exactly that. You can have your CPL at 18. That's 7 years to get to AC. That's heaps of time, if you're motivated and not a loser.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by Grey_Wolf » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:20 pm

There is no reason why a regional airline FO with an ATPL should be making less than a full time Uber driver in Toronto
Yes there is .... shitty pay by employers !!! :x

The employers want candidates, but when it's economically not feasible for those students; I don't feel bad when airplanes get parked and flights cancelled.

Supply and Demand, just keep lowering the bar :evil:

Rental in Toronto, is now on average $2200/month
https://www.narcity.com/ca/on/toronto/n ... dollar2220

Couple that with training costs of approx $60,000 to $80,000.

Pending on who you ask, a good budget is no more than 30% for housing, those renting that includes utilities. 20% should be spent on debt repayment.

So .... 2200$/month x 12 months = $26,400.

Now ... that 26,400 is 30% of what the person should be pulling in right? That means that the candidate should be pulling in $88,000 in order to make that work.

Cue up the pay rates for regional FO in Toronto nowadays, on average about $40,000; less than half of what is required. by the way annual minimum wage is $29,120.

So tell me again, why any high school kid can be convinced to take up aviation?
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shimmydampner
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:24 pm

Well the thing is, neither your rent payments nor your student loans determine your worth as an employee, regardless of what industry you're in. It's a nonsense argument.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by Grey_Wolf » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:10 pm

The argument rests on Return on Investment.

The employer can determine what they want to pay; no argument there.

The employee must decide if it's worth it, the ROI so to speak.

That said, Employers should not belly ache that there is a shortage when there are no candidates knocking on their doors. If you were to take care of their needs, maybe they would apply and stick around a bit. As an employer, you need to attract people to your organisation, how you do so is your prerogative.

I've never understood aviation with regards to employers not paying for experience.

For example two candidates, apply for the same job at a regional airline. One has significant 703-704 time and has been type rated on a variety of different aircraft. The second is a "cadet style" candidate drafted from an regional airline affiliated aviation college program. When they both start, they are paid the same. Are they truly worth the same?

I would argue no, one has experience, decision making skills that should command/warrant a higher starting wage. The issue lies in how to pay for the variety of experience that each individual brings to the table. It shouldn't be lowering the bar to the most common denominator, in my opinion.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:33 am

The 703/704 pilot with significant time generally isn't applying to Jazz. Can't afford to, and can't move into mom's basement either.

I suspect Jazz will find themselves in trouble in the next few years. Hire too many people without the pic time for an ATPL, and they'll run out of upgradeable FOs.

The 703/704/705lite world is starting to get the message and pay is improving. Jazz obviously hasn't, I don't have much hope for Encore.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by bearitus » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:06 pm

I think it would be fair for Jazz and other regionals to pay more for new FOs with an ATPL and experience who can upgrade quickly compared to fresh college grads. That way they will ensure that they will always have people to upgrade. The only way the college grads can realistically upgrade is by renting to build PIC time and that is not easy for many making 35k in a major city.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:27 pm

Grey_Wolf wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:10 pm
For example two candidates, apply for the same job at a regional airline. One has significant 703-704 time and has been type rated on a variety of different aircraft. The second is a "cadet style" candidate drafted from an regional airline affiliated aviation college program. When they both start, they are paid the same. Are they truly worth the same?
The reason the experienced pilot is paid the same as the cadet is because (s)he accepts the lower wage; if (s)he turned down the job, the airline would find another cadet who they could pay the lower wage. Experience has value, but if experienced pilots see value in things like a set schedule and flight benefits then they may be willing to trade off for the lower pay. It's not simply a matter of giving more money to employees with more experience, because as far as the airline is concerned both applicants are legally capable of operating the aircraft, pending a successful PPC, and they are more concerned with keeping costs down. As long as someone who meets the minimum requirement is willing to take the job, they won't raise pay.
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Re: The government is concerned...

Post by confusedalot » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:33 pm

Once again boys and girls, the majority of the world employers pay market rates and pay routine wage increases. You can be good, you can be bad, you still get the market rate.

And that applies to every aviation employee........

Except the pilots. And perhaps to the mechanics.

Non operational aviation personnel just walk over to another industry if they do not get paid a market rate. So they get paid market rates.

Drivers and mechanics, the ones who actually keep the place going, get the shaft.
Cuz they can't go anywhere else.

No wonder few want to enter this job field, if I had the resources 40 years ago through internet searches, I would have quickly dumped any desire to fly planes for a living, no matter how much I liked it.

Bad situation. Would not be surprised that airlines will need to promote recruiting campaigns for off the street people with full training provided.

Crazy? Nope.

The military does it to this day the world over.

Europeans have been doing it for decades.

Chinese can't keep up and hire expats.

Cheers,

Should have been an architect. Stupid me, thought I could conquer the aviation world in this sad country. Lost the game. Best I got was a pretty average life.

I sincerely hope that the situation turns around 1000% for those in this place. It would be well deserved.
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