Clearance Readbacks

[bigfssguy]

I just want to ask all the pilots out there a question. Why is it so difficult for pilots to read back clearances in some semblence of order like how it was passed to them by FSS. Is there a reason why? When FSS go to get a clearnce for you from ATC we are to write down verbatim what the controller says, then verbatim read it back. If it is correct we have to pass it to the pilot verbatim yet again. Then the pilot (some certainly not all) will make a dogs lunch out of it requiring us to get clarification from said pilot to insure they understand it. I know there is no requirment for pilots to read it back verbatim but there is a requirment on our part to insure you understand it.

I'm not to picky but i will continue asking the pilot for at least semi proper readbacks til i feel comfortable that they understand it no matter how mad that pilot gets. The worst part of it is when we pass the clearance and the pilot totally messes it up and we ask for another readback and the pilot gets snotty with us. That is frustrating since we have to do this and we are not even the ones who messed it up. I have a some pilot friends who write it down and read it back exactly how we said it (sometimes with the "correction" in there! eh DL) and they make there FO's do this as well. This nice since we know they have it and cuts back of frequency congestion and makes everyones life easier.

Now back to my question, is there a reason pilots will mix the order or twist things around in the clearance. 9 times out of 10 the pilot completely understands it but messes it up prompting us to correct them and annoying you in the process. If anyone has some insight or comment on this it would be greatly appreciated.

[Beechball]

Quite simply, it's probably due to us doing 3 or 4 other tasks at the same time. Or, an unusual event taking place during the clearance delivery such as a master caution / warning light going off etc... There's lots of variables.... Generally the crew is doing a few things at the same time during pre take of preparations, in particular TAXIING! If the airport is unfamiliar to us or the Wx is bad, this loads up our brains even more, consequently leaving less room to get it right on the first try etc... Also, if we're doing an unfamiliar route and we get an amended clearance that we weren't expecting, that compounds the issue... I'm sure the others can add in a lot more.

[Turkey]

As I understand it, clearance copying is a skill that is taught to Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Service Specialists. There is a collection of abbreviations and symbols used to copy a clearance in short hand. It's part of the curriculum when learning your trade.

Pilots, for the most part, do not learn this skill. It's not taught. Nor is it required to be. Without this short hand system, it is usually impossible to write down the entire clearance correctly. Later, when reading it back, even if they tried to write it down, it no longer looks like something that makes sence. "Climb runway heading to 15,000 feet before proceding on coarse" might get scribbled down as "runway - 15" because, it's all he or she had time to write. Also, many inexperienced pilots do not even know that there is a standard phraseology used in each and every clearance. The order is the same. It's standardized and it's predictable.

I'm guessing, prior to you learning it in the classroom, you wouldn't have been able to read back a clearance vertim, either. Pilots don't have the benefit of learning it in the classroom. For the most part, we are learning it on the job. The mistakes you made in the classroom, we are making on the Mandatory Frequency, while inventing our own short hand.

Should it be this way? Probably not. But as of yet, nobody has organized the flight schools in the country to start teaching clearance copying to their IFR students.

To take it a step further, many new IFR pilots don't even realise that the IFR clearance didn't come from the FSS. They don't realise that the FSS is just the messanger. In order to understand the importance of "verbatim," they first need to understand the process that has already taken place to get the clearance to them.

[bigfssguy]

Great post turkey, i agree with you completely we do get it drubbed into us from the first clearance to get it right and exact. Pilots don't have thats same luxury but maybe they should but that isn't my problem that is for instructors to do. But as for this problem there is a easy solution.............A visit to your friendly neighbourhodd FSS. We have all our abbreviations on a couple of pages which are easily photocopied and given to a pilot. Also we can show you how we do our clearances possibly clarifying issues and helping the pilot. We are only concerned with getting it right the first time around and if we can help a pilot get better at a certain skill we will be more than happy to help.

As for things going on in the cockpit well there are a ton of things going on in the tower cab sometimes 2 or even 3 phone lines ringing, vehicle frequency squawking, alarms from navaids, computers beeping or breaking etc etc etc. One skill FSS gain with time is being able to write a clearance, hear a pilot and vehicle operater talking and get the gist of it all while monitoring sometimes several conflicts. But that is something that comes with time, i'm sure that is the same thing with pilots. The frustrating part is when the really experienced guys do it cause "thats the way i do it". A terrible mind set but you see a lot of it in this business.

[TG]

Turkey got it right, practice is the key.

Beside this, not everybody is flying the same route everydays.
I'm aware that it sound a bit unprofessional not being able to read it back correctly but it doesn't take to much to do so.
In in my case for example, our main job is VFR aerial work.
Ferry are done IFR. We rarely fly twice the same route in a year. We have sometime to deal with "accents" (and I'm probably more guilty on this one than you could think).
So, if I'm in an unfamiliar area and the person giving the authorization is a bit too quick or gave us a routing/frequency change in it...Well, I can only write that speed my own abbreviations...and get half of it....

But next time I will stop near a FSS I will take your advice and ask for your abbreviations pages to improve mine.

[bush pilot]

Another thing that you might want to consider BigFssGuy, and I am sure you do this already but some of the ground and fss people don't, is give a warning to the pilot before a clearance is to be read. That is one of my pet peaves, you are doing other checks in the plane and all of a sudden you hear ground/FSS say XYZ you are cleared to etc etc. you are scrambling for your pen and paper that are on the floor and then start writing down the info from what you can remember and then get it jumbled up with the stuff you are hearing. Which explains why you would be getting them back all jumbled up. I have know learned to just keep the bloody huge box right infront of me so i can start ASAP with any clearance.

[R2000/1830]

I am guilty of this but its because of the short hand I use. Over time like all pilots I have learned the order clearances come in and write down the following before I get it.

Atc Clears __________
To _________
Via __________
Depart __________
Maint _______
Squawk ________

so the read back sounds like 123 to ABC via CDE, FGH, Flt plan off 34, 210, 1234.

Short and sweet, no controller has told me they have a problem with this. The problem I have with some FSS guys is they say the clearance like they are at a auction. Is there a prize at the end of the year for the fss guy who can give the fastest clearance. You have to remember that pilots as a group are slow, otherwise we would have got a real job.

[Turkey]

Ah yes, the pen on the floor problem! Sounds all too familiar. (Before I started flying, I never knew how attracted pens are to airplane floors!) And once you drop it, you can't exactly just roll your chair back and pick it up. Plus, the friggin thing is probably frozen, anyway!

Lets face it, there's a reason they don't design office furnature shaped like airplane cockpits. Without a doubt, one of the most unfriendly places in the universe to write something down. No flat surfaces ANYWHERE. Little to no lighting. Small, tight, cramped, dark and cold.

But there are things we can do to improve our odds. A clipboard with a clean piece of paper. An adjusted light. A pen that's tested. And a pilot that's ready to copy. These things can all be organized BEFORE requesting the clearance.

[Flying Low]

As for having a pen that works...

I bought the space pen refills. They came with an adapter that makes them work in a standard retractable parker pen. As advertised...they work in the cold and will even write on wet paper.

[chipmunk]

Or do like the Russians did on their first space flights and use a pencil...

[grimey]

Another thing that you might want to consider BigFssGuy, and I am sure you do this already but some of the ground and fss people don't, is give a warning to the pilot before a clearance is to be read.

We're supposed to let you know that we have your clearance, so that you get ready copy it down. Just ask them to say it again if you didn't get it, it's what we do when an pilot gives us all his info on his initial call. If I'm reading it, and it's the same simple clearance (via direct, maintain flight level 210, squawk 1234) I relay to the same pilot every day on a sked flight, I'll rattle it off really quick, and they'll read it back correctly every time. If it's a medevac who's pilot is probably exhausted, or it's complicated because of the routing or restrictions, I'll take my time and make sure they have a chance to copy it down.

[bush pilot]

Tell that to the YSB guys, they like to come out of knowhere and ryme of your clerance as fast as possible without proir notice.

Much like R2000/1830 I have come up with my own method that allows me to be quick about it and read it back properly.

[Localizer]

How about this ..... WHO CARES! ..... as long as the clearence is understood and is read back what is the problem? Is it that you don't understand it unless readback in the exact order given?

Moving along ...



Loc

[Bede]

Pet Peeve:

Read back a clearance from FSS "Cleared to Thunder Bay, Direct..."
YXL FSS: "Confirm the clearance limit is the Thunder Bay Airport?"
No the big green Thunder Bay Superstore!!

I've never heard center correct me on this even when going into Ottawa (a lot of times they give the clearance as "cleared to Ottawa", even though the VOR isn't even near the airport. I don't know why FSS are the only people who feel the need to confirm the clearance limit.

[Pratt]

To add to R2000/1830's post, something that works well for me is to write out the clearance that I am anticipating. Then when FSS/ATC is reading the clearance I just follow along and confirm that it is as I have been anticipating. If there is a routing/altitude change from what I was anticipating I cross out what doesn't apply and above it write down the changes in my own shorthand. Keeps the actual amount of writing down to a minimum so that I can listen to the clearance being given.

[Busted]

Hey Bigfssguy,

That is just what happens when you have been standing outside in YYQ freezing your narbles off, after doing the hurry up and wait thing.

That is unless you have certain guys that just cannot speak english. lol

See ya E_

[co-joe]

Now back to my question, is there a reason pilots will mix the order or twist things around in the clearance. 9 times out of 10 the pilot completely understands it but messes it up prompting us to correct them and annoying you in the process. If anyone has some insight or comment on this it would be greatly appreciated.

My take on this is that clearances start at the clearance limit, and work backwards to the point of departure. The pilot of course is thinking in terms of where am I? and where am I going?

Then the big re-arrange comes with the clearance and you are under pressure to not only read it back correctly, but verify that indeeed you are able to comly with it.

[xsbank]

And, don't forget if it includes a SID, you just have to read back the squawk code.

"Challenger Foxtrot uniform charlie kilo cleared to the Solidly Frozen Airport, FPR, depart Runway 31R, JFK9, Canarsie Climb, expect FL310 ten minutes after departure, Squawk 3456."

"Challenger Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo Squawk 3456."

Develop your own shorthand using whatever makes sense to you and
praktiss, practess, pracktiss.

[co-joe]

I understand that XSbank, but what about fox uniform charlie kilo is cleared to the frozen igloo airport via paradise direct, maintain FL280 wile in controlled airspace, depart three five, climb on course, sid one, squak 1234?

Can you then omit the WICA and COC? and just read back the code?

[Cat Driver]

Interesting responses.

We were taught shorthand for weather and IFR clearances.

In fact we were taught morse code, which was manditory for the instrument rating and part of the test was reading morse..

Cat