Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

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sullecpt
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Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by sullecpt » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 am

Do we actually have a pilot shortage? Not sure why but I find it strange we are all saying there is a shortage, however wages are still low in comparison to other countries. I see articles in the news saying operators cant find pilots, but its strange we haven't seen the trends here that we see outside Canada. After 5 min of google searches I found that all these operators listed below offer cadet programs to residents of their countries.

We dont have a 1500 hour rule like the US. So why aren't airlines here taking advantage of this? Even smaller operations in Canada are in need of pilots. Why not fully fund training for a screened pilot applicant, and in return keep them for X amount of years of service. The company could tailor the training to their needs and guarantee a steady supply of pilots. I dont love the idea, but many airlines abroad are even including type ratings in the training and eventually the YOS/Prorated Bond pays for it. (You'd think the cheap regionals here would jump at this prospect)

I know many pilots who bailed out in the early days because of the poor job prospects, lack of direction, unwillingness to move to a location they dont want to live, wages...etc. Lets face it, for many people time building jobs are a means to an end, not because they want to. Most young people cant get into aviation because its essentially now a profession for rich kids. Taking on massive debt with no job guarantees is a legit concern for many. (Yes, I do know of pilots, including myself who managed to do it without big issues)

So when I think of the pros and cons of these cadet programs it makes me wonder, why hasn't this trend started in Canada? New pilots would get a secure job without breaking the bank. Operators get pilots under control.(and they loooove control!) Win-win?

Just some thoughts. Obviously money and experience level debates are valid concerns one could also throw into the mix. In just find it interesting, the different trends!

Just a few cadet programs, no including corporate or smaller operators.
Oceania
Air New Zealand
Airline Cadets
Free Spirit Airlines
Jetstar
Qantas
Qantas Link
REX
Sharp Airlines
Virgin Australia

North America
American Eagle
American Airlines
Delta Air Lines
jetBlue Airways
United Airlines
ATP Flight School

Africa
South African Airways

Asia
Aeroflot
Air Asia X
Air China
ANA
Asiana Airlines
Cathay Pacific
Cebu Pacific
China Airlines
China Eastern
China Southern
Dragonair
Garuda Indonesia
Hainan
Hong Kong Airlines
Indigo Airlines
Japan Airlines
Jet Airways
Kingfisher
Korean Air
Lion Air
Malaysia Airlines
Shenzhen Airlines
Singapore Airlines
Singapore Cargo
Scoot
Thai Airways
Vietnam Airlines

Europe
Aer Lingus
Air Berlin
Air France KLM
Alitalia
Austrian Airlines
British Airways
easyJet
Lufthansa
Ryanair
Swiss
Thompson Airways
Turkish Airlines

Middle East
Emirates
Etihad
Middle Eastern
Qatar Airways
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sullecpt
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by sullecpt » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:44 am

I'd also add. I'd bet more then half the the CPL's now issued in Canada are Asian cadet pilots. For what its worth..
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by North Shore » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am

Not sure how cadet programs would help wages in general? You’re essentially creating a group of indentured slaves to XYZ Air - they’re on the hook for several years of debt repayment, so no real incentive to pay more than basics. Also, you could give them a form of Stockholm Syndrome - p-poor pay for the first few years, and then a, say, doubling of pay ( to what could still be far below par) and you’ll get people feeling so grateful that they’d never stand up for themselves..
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shimmydampner
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by shimmydampner » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:26 am

sullecpt wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 am
Taking on massive debt with no job guarantees is a legit concern for many.
Not disagreeing with your post, but I do take issue with the entitled sentiment of this statement. How many careers that offer the earning potential of ours offer guaranteed employment after education/studying/training? When has there ever been such a guarantee in this industry? This pervasive modern thought that time and money spent pursuing basic entry level qualification should equate to immediate success off the highest order is not at all reflective of how the world works. The fact remains that it is easier now to achieve success in this industry than it has been for at least the last 20 years. There are many many paths to reach any number of aviation goals for anyone willing to put in the effort to get there. In my experience, I've never seen it so close to a sure thing as it is now, but just as with anything else in life, it won't be just handed to you. Just go out and get after it.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by youhavecontrol » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:16 am

I would not have been accepted into a Cadet program when I was younger because my school marks were not good enough. It took a while before I grew up and learned how to learn. Also, having come from a rural area, I would not have had access to it even if I could. My parents could not even afford to drive me to the nearest airport with a RCAF Cadet program... so I couldn't even do the gliding or PPL training for free.

Being able to work my butt off in the oil patch, and paying for my own training was the only way to ensure that I could make it. I struggled through my training because I sucked at studying, so working and paying for it on my own time was the only way I could get it done. ..but I got it done.

I wouldn't have it any other way. Sure, there's a shortage or whatever... I don't really care because they've said that for years, and even when I started applying for my first job, people were skeptical I'd even get one. All I know is I have a job flying, which was always my dream and if we had a cadet program, like they do in China (where the students come from that I've taught for a few years), I would have been left in the dust... probably still be working on a pipeline, still looking skyward. I had the freedom to work my arse off and choose my own adventure.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by pigboat » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:38 am

A Cadet program is not likely in Canada except that the Regionals like Jazz, Porter and Encore may expand formal programs with the Aviation Colleges for direct entry pilots. The so called pilot shortage here will ease in about three years and the attrition at the larger airlines will diminish considerably. So far the Larger carriers have had no issue in finding highly qualified recruits. Probably about 1000 more pilots required in the next three years and then much slower attrition rates. One day we will have a recession and as has happened many times before, the music will stop and stagnation can set in for a few years. Enjoy this ride as it will not last forever and has been quite spectacular these last few years.

My two cents worth.

Regards.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by Heliian » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:59 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:26 am
sullecpt wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 am
Taking on massive debt with no job guarantees is a legit concern for many.
Not disagreeing with your post, but I do take issue with the entitled sentiment of this statement. How many careers that offer the earning potential of ours offer guaranteed employment after education/studying/training? When has there ever been such a guarantee in this industry? This pervasive modern thought that time and money spent pursuing basic entry level qualification should equate to immediate success off the highest order is not at all reflective of how the world works. The fact remains that it is easier now to achieve success in this industry than it has been for at least the last 20 years. There are many many paths to reach any number of aviation goals for anyone willing to put in the effort to get there. In my experience, I've never seen it so close to a sure thing as it is now, but just as with anything else in life, it won't be just handed to you. Just go out and get after it.
This SHOULD be common sense, but also not too common. Very well said.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by complexintentions » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:26 am
sullecpt wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:36 am
Taking on massive debt with no job guarantees is a legit concern for many.
Not disagreeing with your post, but I do take issue with the entitled sentiment of this statement. How many careers that offer the earning potential of ours offer guaranteed employment after education/studying/training? When has there ever been such a guarantee in this industry? This pervasive modern thought that time and money spent pursuing basic entry level qualification should equate to immediate success off the highest order is not at all reflective of how the world works. The fact remains that it is easier now to achieve success in this industry than it has been for at least the last 20 years. There are many many paths to reach any number of aviation goals for anyone willing to put in the effort to get there. In my experience, I've never seen it so close to a sure thing as it is now, but just as with anything else in life, it won't be just handed to you. Just go out and get after it.
The poster didn't say anyone was entitled to anything. All he's saying is that a considered assessment of the risk/reward ratio of becoming a pilot raises a "legit concern", specifically BECAUSE there are no guarantees and the debt burden for most is very high. So he asks why programs in wide use elsewhere aren't in Canada.

Absolutely nothing entitled or incorrect about that. If anything we need more people to give thoughtful consideration to their prospects before "just going out and getting after it". If they did, perhaps there wouldn't be a glut of inexperienced pilots all competing for the few entry-level jobs.

Way to find an excuse to preach a sermon, though. :roll:

Cadet programs are not exactly "immediate success". Low wages, indentured servitude and the right seat for years is not my idea of winning the aviation lottery, but it could theoretically be mutually beneficial for both parties. Hence they exist in many places. But cadet pilots in Canada will only become commonplace when it ceases to be cheaper to just let pilots go out and pay for their own training.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am

Lots of people pay as much or more than pilots for their education. Lots of them will never make nearly what a professional pilot could. None of them are guaranteed jobs. Such is life.
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by mixturerich » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:48 am

Is there a limit to how many college grads an airline can have at once? Is it just a matter of paying more insurance?
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by sstaurus » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:14 pm

I often wondered how much of a factor insurance was in the mix. Do rates skyrocket with more 250 hr FOs? Or is it a question of total time in the cockpit to an insurance company?
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by sullecpt » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:20 am

GGN did a cadet program a few years ago. I believe they had them train down in Florida at FlightSafety, then they came home and flew the 1900. I'm curious how those pilots are doing now, and if GGN would call the program a success or failure.

I think the pilots paid for the training as any other pilot would. Any alumni from the program here that can shed light?
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Re: Thoughts - Cadet Pilot Trends

Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:45 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am
Lots of people pay as much or more than pilots for their education. Lots of them will never make nearly what a professional pilot could. None of them are guaranteed jobs. Such is life.
The difficulty in Aviation is that it's very difficult to access the funding especially if you're not going the college/university route. Even if you are it in most cases there is a large gap between what you can access via student loads and the actual flight training costs. Unless you ave family $$ or a consignor a bank wont touch you. For many a consignor isn't an option for accessing $80K

This hasn't changed in decades. I had the same issue in the early 90's.

The federal government has been providing access for decades to student loans to fund Bachelor of Arts and Philosophy degrees that lead to Mcjobs.
accessing this funding, the interest rates and the pay back schedule is only a dream for someone joining this field.
A doctor can incur large amounts of debt during their education because of these programs.

BTW I am a huge supporter of secondary education. I want the playing field leveled, not grants, just access to funding.
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