Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

[Heliian]

How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?

Congrats on making the stupidest comment of the day



It's like saying you don't have to wear your seatbelt because you don't plan on getting into an accident. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

[CaptainKirk]

This is a good thing. Also when it comes time to actually using one, many people put it on wrong. I made a video below on how to properly inflate a life vest. Feel free to share this with your passengers.


https://youtu.be/U5_5K3xKmoc

[PilotDAR]

Ah Captain Kirk,

If your video is about how to properly inflate a life vest, would it be worth observing for the audience that you failed to inflate one of the two chambers, because to had the inflation toggle wrapped around the cylinder? Of course, following an inflation, one of the actions is the check to make sure it inflated properly, you seemed to have missed that one. You mention that the life vest "may" have manual inflation tubes... If it was emergency equipment on an airplane, it certainly has them. I would not be showing a failed battery, how does that build confidence for nervous users? "This may not work, so carry two AA cells and tape"?!

You mention a number of times that it's an expired life vest, as though that should justify several things not working as you intended. Really? "Hey guys, what me do this safety briefing to see if it works!" is not really a safety briefing. I cannot support the casual home made, incomplete Youtube video as a replacement for a Transport Canada approved safety briefing, or formalized training. Perhaps you could revisit the place in the world for your video after it has been created and approved to cover the topic properly, and not give the viewer a false sense that they have watched, and now know. If you were training in an airplane, would you train with expired charts and say to the student that you hope that they were still right? This is pretty important stuff, do you want to be responsible for putting incomplete training material out there to those who don't know any better?

I say this as a retired water rescue, ice water rescue trainer, who has taken the underwater egress course, and actually used a life vest to save my life after being crashed into the water in an airplane. Please train within the training curriculum that has been approved, to assure the quality of the training, and maintain a high standard for our industry. I train marine crews and issue certificates to them as a delegate of Transport Canada. I would not be using your video as training material, it would not meet the requirement.

[CaptainKirk]

Good points, the other cylinder was empty and didn’t inflate. It added to the humour. I did make a disclaimer it’s for entertainment purposes only. Thanks for stopping by!

[missed-approach]

I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress. Most definitely would have prevented me climbing out of the window of my Beaver. Door Jammed. Possibly would have led to premature activation, midway through window opening. Having lost watch and multi tool in the process. However if you are lucky enough to get out alive. Then find yourself in the middle of unfavourable water, aircraft sinking. You have no option other than life jackets. Catch 22.

[PilotDAR]

It added to the humour. I did make a disclaimer it’s for entertainment purposes only.

Also when it comes time to actually using one, many people put it on wrong. I made a video below on how to properly inflate a life vest. Feel free to share this with your passengers.

....Does not mention humour or entertainment only. Why would I share an entertainment only humour video (with errors) with my passengers? This is an important safety topic, not humour nor entertainment!

There is zero purpose to blurring an important safety topic by injecting non serious, inaccurate information to the uninformed. I sure hope that no pilots actually do show your video to their passengers. It could only serve to upset them, while detracting from correct understanding.

So what's the benefit of the video?

I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress

Could be. Loose clothing could also snag you. It's a risk which can be reduced with some practice and level headed egress, but the risk of snagging will never be none. But, unless rescue is assured within the treading water time of a hopefully non injured person in the water, supplementary flotation is vital. If you're injured, and losing consciousness, a life jacket is your only hope. With a broken shoulder and arm, broken back and two broken legs keeping myself afloat was not possible. I could not even use my good arm to pull the toggle to inflate the lifejacket I was already wearing, as I was holding onto a sinking plane. I was able to manually inflate it, and that made the life or death difference. I remember seeing the yellow portion inflating over my shoulder, then I relaxed and left the rescue to others, I could no longer help myself. I was told that my lifevest had been ripped while exiting the plane, but it held enough air.

[Heliian]

I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress. Most definitely would have prevented me climbing out of the window of my Beaver. Door Jammed. Possibly would have led to premature activation, midway through window opening. Having lost watch and multi tool in the process. However if you are lucky enough to get out alive. Then find yourself in the middle of unfavourable water, aircraft sinking. You have no option other than life jackets. Catch 22.

During underwater egress training, we wear all of the gear, haven't seen one inflate on it's own yet. They aren't that bulky and the activation toggles are designed not to snag.

[missed-approach]

My concerns with toggles, are the 20+ years as a professional seafarer. During rescue boat drills on more than one occasion. The manually inflated pfd would activate. Ie toggles snagged on something. Whether that was pulling casualty/dummy out of water or snagging when hooking onto davits. Who knows?! There is an element of risk. That's my only concern. I wish to never experiment. It was tough, a heavy set guy pulling himself out of a DHC2 pilot window. Only wearing t-shirt and dickie pants. The test of time will be if the life jackets will save people trapped in submerged aircraft. Or like lifeboats on ships. Will kill more people than the save. Stay safe everybody

[PilotDAR]

Sure, an inflatable life vest could be accidentally inflated upon exit, or it could snag. So, you should know how to deflate it (maybe the back side of the cap on the manual inflator), and you should either be able to remove it, or cut a strap, similar to a seatbelt cutter. I have one within reach of my seated position.

If you are not wearing the lifevest as you exit the plane, it's not going with you, and you'll be in the water without one. The survivability statistics on that are poor.

Drowning is very high probability, and very high severity. Getting snagged or having a lifevest inflate by accident is a lesser probability, and maybe not even as high a severity.

[photofly]

Just as another data point, Bryan the dunker guy teaches people to put on a life vest in the water. Not as a preference to having one on before the event, but as an acknowledgement that many people won't.

His protocol is to wait for the aircraft to stop moving, grab the lifevest in its pouch, orient relative to the airframe, open the door, release your seatbelt, and go. Then when clear of the aircraft put your head through the vest, and inflate. Then you do up the straps.

The people in this thread who've had to be rescued for real from the water with a life-vest on will have their opinions about that, but that's what he teaches.

[PilotDAR]

Bryan the dunker guy teaches people to put on a life vest in the water. Not as a preference to having one on before the event, but as an acknowledgement that many people won't.

Yes, the take away from Bryan's training is to make it obvious that if you're not wearing it, you are probably leaving without it, at least if you have not practiced a lot in fumbling around for it! I only got it once out of four tries, and I was working at it.

[Meatservo]

How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?

I saw a commercially-operated Beaver once, when the floats were installed the threaded "boxing wire" rigging rods that criss-cross between the fuselage and the opposite side floats were installed incorrectly. One rod was either damaged on one end or threaded too far into the opposite end- the result was that not very much thread was left where one end of the rod entered the fitting, and the apprentice -one assumes it was an apprentice- thought it was OK. Naturally this failed but not before the Beaver had been quite busy for some time after the floats had been installed. On the landing after a takeoff from some swells, the rod failed and the floats tried to fold up. The pilot felt the gear go all trapezoidal on him on the takeoff and had the presence of mind to land in calm water very close inside the harbour and beach the thing in a boat-slip. It didn't collapse all the way but it definitely looked cock-eyed, and if there had been a swell running in the harbour or the pilot had attempted to turn while on the step, it's easy to imagine that thing hooking a wing and hitting the water sideways in a tangle of struts and wires.

So, no comment on how often seaplanes end up in the water through no fault of the pilot, but it is not "zero" times.

[ragbagflyer]

What models have people here ordered for commercial use as of Sept 6th?

[partsguy.ca]

What models have people here ordered for commercial use as of Sept 6th?

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I too would like to know if any Canadian Commercial Operator(s) have purchased a Pouch Type Device that meets the standards and has been given the nod by TCCA as being compliant. Many people are aware of the CAR change, but the consistent question seems to be...."OK - What do we use?" In the real world of Life Saving - I completely agree with "Something" is better than "Nothing", (my teenage kids hated it when I made them put on a Mustang Inflatable in our Family Boat) but that will not get you past an audit.

What is used in a Recreational Float Plane is not really my question...I'm interested in hearing from Commercial Ops Folks.

Maybe its too soon..

Thanks.

[sunk]

Dss aviation in Nova Scotia. Ask for Blake as he is up on what TC requires.

[185_guy]

What models have people here ordered for commercial use as of Sept 6th?

Operators in this area are simply using the ole faithful ‘bagged’ inflatable life jacket, put inside a fanny pouch and voila, wearing an approved life jacket.

[digits_]

As posted in the other topic:
https://www.aerospaceservices.ca/2021/0 ... evice-ifd/

[scdriver]

What models have people here ordered for commercial use as of Sept 6th?

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I too would like to know if any Canadian Commercial Operator(s) have purchased a Pouch Type Device that meets the standards and has been given the nod by TCCA as being compliant. Many people are aware of the CAR change, but the consistent question seems to be...."OK - What do we use?" In the real world of Life Saving - I completely agree with "Something" is better than "Nothing", (my teenage kids hated it when I made them put on a Mustang Inflatable in our Family Boat) but that will not get you past an audit.

What is used in a Recreational Float Plane is not really my question...I'm interested in hearing from Commercial Ops Folks.

Maybe its too soon..

Thanks.

The mustang minimalist belt pack is approved for use, as is the pouch style pfd developed by Harbour Air (collaboration with mustang I believe).

[Vern]

What models have people here ordered for commercial use as of Sept 6th?

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I too would like to know if any Canadian Commercial Operator(s) have purchased a Pouch Type Device that meets the standards and has been given the nod by TCCA as being compliant. Many people are aware of the CAR change, but the consistent question seems to be...."OK - What do we use?" In the real world of Life Saving - I completely agree with "Something" is better than "Nothing", (my teenage kids hated it when I made them put on a Mustang Inflatable in our Family Boat) but that will not get you past an audit.

What is used in a Recreational Float Plane is not really my question...I'm interested in hearing from Commercial Ops Folks.

Maybe its too soon..

Thanks.

The mustang minimalist belt pack is approved for use, as is the pouch style pfd developed by Harbour Air (collaboration with mustang I believe).

The Harbour Air one is TSO-13, the Mustang minimalist is nothing. It is not allowed...

[scdriver]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I too would like to know if any Canadian Commercial Operator(s) have purchased a Pouch Type Device that meets the standards and has been given the nod by TCCA as being compliant. Many people are aware of the CAR change, but the consistent question seems to be...."OK - What do we use?" In the real world of Life Saving - I completely agree with "Something" is better than "Nothing", (my teenage kids hated it when I made them put on a Mustang Inflatable in our Family Boat) but that will not get you past an audit.

What is used in a Recreational Float Plane is not really my question...I'm interested in hearing from Commercial Ops Folks.

Maybe its too soon..

Thanks.

The mustang minimalist belt pack is approved for use, as is the pouch style pfd developed by Harbour Air (collaboration with mustang I believe).

The Harbour Air one is TSO-13, the Mustang minimalist is nothing. It is not allowed...

Our company was given the go ahead to use them by TC. It was a very recent approval (right before the reg change).