I have scoured the West Jet and Encore forum pages for the answer. All I can deduce from my search is that no one knows and things are entirely up in the air.
The worst possible outcome for an OTS hire would be to sit at the bottom of the list while pilot after pilot flows in ahead of you. Obviously Encore management wants the "one list" so badly you can almost taste it. How else can they continue to pay the way they pay and schedule the way they schedule. The pilots want it as well, but they will have to pay dearly for it in upcoming negotiations.
Until there are some solid answers with regard to EXACTLY what happens for an OTS hire to mainline anyone who takes this job might need a CAT scan.
Previously, the one list was only an issue with respect to upgrades and bases. My understanding (based on hearsay but from reputable sources) is that this will remain in place. i.e. there's a very good chance that a new hire OTS WJ FO will be YYZ based and in the right seat for quite some time.
Where things are still very uncertain is how seniority will affect reserve status, bumping, layoffs etc. With WestJet mainline implementing reserve for the first time, there will definitely be some challenges.
The "good" news is that you will now be getting years of service so when you do finally upgrade you won't start at year 1 Captain Pay. However, again, the specifics aren't really finalized either.
There are roughly 2100 total WJ/Encore/Swoop pilots and 550 at Encore currently. Assuming that almost all of those 550 pilots will want to upgrade to Captain on the 737 when the time comes, you can see how there will be additional challenges down the road. Logically, making every option simply a position bid would make much more sense. I know many Encore Captains who would happily stay at Encore for longer if it didn't handicap them and the scheduling was a little better. However, currently Encore to WestJet is a one way door. But I don't anticpate that changing in the near future as, well, that's just not the way things have been done in the Canadian aviation industry.
WJ mainline FO based in YYZ is not a bad job by anymeans. You top out at roughly $110,00 a year as an FO and the mainline schedule is quite good (with the caveat about the incoming reserve). But based on the above considerations, at the moment there may be some much better options for a long term career progression even if AC doesn't call. I'd suggest that on the airline side of things (especially if you're fine with a YYZ base) Transat and Sunwing are better options for long term career progression at the moment.
I'd go to Westjet mainline in a heartbeat if I knew I wasn't behind 550 Encore pilots. Unfortunately, WJA is going to have to sort this out if they want any quality OTS applicants. Otherwise, as said by an earlier poster, AC and even Transat and Sunwing are better options. Nothing against those at Encore, but no other regional has guaranteed flow. If anything, maybe the loss of guaranteed flow would translate into greater bargaining power by the pilot group.
Not quite correct. In the WJ groundschools since the WJ CBA, Encore flow pilots have not had to draw numbers (OTS have) and have retained their original DOH for the purpose of base/type/position bids (and vacation accrual). It has been status quo from what it was before while the One List is being worked on. So yes, unless the One List plans are scrapped or something drastic changes, new OTS hires can still expect to be YYZ based 737 FOs for an extended period of time. It is still not a bad place to be, and with YOS the long wait is more palatable.The Trumporium wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:20 amJust an FYI, the one list is not in place as we speak. New hire pilots, regardless of where they come from, go to the bottom of the list. That could change, but I suspect not without a lot of screeching from various sectors.
Of note, pilots hired OTS (not from Encore) from 2013 onwards, have until March 21, 2019 (Dec 21, 2018 + 90 days) in which to file a Duty of Fair Representation violation with the CIRB in regard to their placement on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List. Depending on how things turn out with respect to the Max issue, that placement could be important.
EDIT: For clarification, in the WJ CBA recently released, all pilots were allegedly (no one I know has seen the WPSL) given Date of Hire, except for pilots hired from Encore up until Kaplan's June 2018 Order. Those Encore pilots were given superseniority (DOH +). Pilots hired from Encore since that time go to BOTL as per the CBA.
As for the one list, it's up in the air but I'll wager itll be around. It has its pros and cons.
If encore was serious about attracting and retaining experienced pilots they'd merge the Capt pay with 737 fo pay say at year 3 ( first year dash skipper earns same as 3rd year 37 fo) and have the scales increase lockstep. Offer yos or at least a wage freeze to encore pilots going to the jet, and the ability for 37 fos to bid dash skipper with no loss of pay then it becomes a lifestyle job. Throw in some extra bases for encore out east and you got yourself a great lifestyle job with a 37 left seat waiting.
But its cheaper to train 200 hour pilots and prey we dont pound one in. As the old TC poster said think safety is expensive try an accident. Ask boeing how that's going for them. Hopefully we learn that lesson the non painful way.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Oh crap, we’ve woken up WeedPro/Rotten apple/10th man/ New Commercial pilot ( or maybe the asylum released him on day parole?) Stand by for pages of diatribe and drivel of dubious legal value....The Trumporium wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:12 pmYou could be right, but that would be in contravention of the CBA (draft):
3-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST
3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.
3-1.02. Only Pilots whose names appear on the PSL are authorized to operate aircraft used by the Company in its flight operations, except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement.
3-1.03. The PSL shall show the Seniority of each Pilot by name, Rank, Permanent Base, Equipment, Status, and date of hire (DOH) of all Pilots employed by the Company.
3-1.04. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, Seniority shall begin to accrue from a Pilot’s DOH as a Pilot with the Company and shall continue to accrue during such period of service.
3-3. ATTRIBUTION OF SENIORITY NUMBER
3-3.01. On the date this Agreement becomes effective, the following pilots shall hold the same Seniority they held on the WestJet Pilots Department List (WPDL) on the date this Agreement becomes effective:
a) A Pilot who is in the bargaining unit as defined in SECTION 2 - GENERAL (Association Recognition); and,
b) A Management Pilot as defined in SECTION 18 - MANAGEMENT PILOTS.
Within ninety (90) Calendar Days of the effective date of this Agreement, the Parties agree to meet to review and finalize the PSL.
3-3.02. When two (2) or more Pilots have the same date of employment, their standing in the Pilot Seniority List shall be based on a lottery draw. The Association will conduct the lottery draw.
Oh I'm very well aware of the wording in the CBA for a lot of things, and there is a lot to go through on all topics. The question posed earlier in the thread was if OTS would be behind flow pilots (including Swoop as well) after being hired, and the reality is that things are still being run (both by the company and by ALPA) according to the expectation that the One List will be finalized. So the answer is yes, it will likely be a long wait if you're OTS. As stated by myself and others previously this does not mean this is a bad place to be even at the bottom of the list, a good career can still be had here, and the sooner one gets on the property the better the prospects.
You're correct that the LOU is not in effect at the moment, but to simply dismiss its existence and likely upcoming ratification is naive. However, this is aviation so anything can still happen. But I know what I would bet my money on.
Nope, that is not what's going on. That would also violate the current language of the CBA as there should be no way that anyone would hold any seniority based on their previous placement. And if the One List were to never get finalized, having the Encore pilots draw numbers at that point would also create a mess leaving ALPA open to grievances from the OTS hires left behind those pilots in their respective hire classes. The current method of operating in status quo for the merging of the lists simply points to one end result.The Trumporium wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 pmI just realized the confusion. ALPA pilots coming to WJ from Encore are not choosing seniority numbers because within that class only, they get awarded the highest seniority number for that DOH. I assume they are keeping their Encore relative seniority order.
You may not think this is possible in our industry, but just take a look at Georgian and Jazz recently.
Encore can’t afford to lose any more pilots to mainline without parking airplanes. While Encore was the fastest route to AC two years ago, the tables have turned and now the fastest way to a WJ 737 is through Jazz.sullecpt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:17 amWhy does WJ mainline even hire OTS? I mean, I know a handful of Encore Captains who have been there several years and still havent had the opportunity to flow up. Why not make the hires 100% from encore? It must be a little frustrating seeing waiting for the call when half the 737 classes are outside hires.
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3415
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
...and yet Encore isn't hiring right now. Something doesn't add up there.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:11 amEncore can’t afford to lose any more pilots to mainline without parking airplanes. ...sullecpt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:17 amWhy does WJ mainline even hire OTS? I mean, I know a handful of Encore Captains who have been there several years and still havent had the opportunity to flow up. Why not make the hires 100% from encore? It must be a little frustrating seeing waiting for the call when half the 737 classes are outside hires.
My quick math says you'd make $280 000 more in 8 years by going straight to mainline over going to Encore for 5 years first. Not including better benefits, fewer days worked, and better ESP. If upgrades at mainline are in roughly 10 years you'd come out way ahead financially by spending all 10 of those years in the right seat at mainline rather than spending 4 or 5 of them in the left seat at Encore before spending 5 more at mainline.
Not pay, no. They just keep their seniority number from their original Encore date of hire. Basically your date of hire for WJ, Encore or Swoop will be your seniority date forever. For pay, only years of service at Swoop counts towards mainline. That’s how it is.
The single seniority list across all 3 companies is completely intact and being followed for every bid to this day.
Caveat: The LOU which keeps said list intact is still hanging in limbo for no good reason. All parties agree to it and want it in place yet it doesn’t seem to be moving forward. IMHO this is because of one single solitary reason...ongoing negotiations with Encore Pilots. Simple as that. Company knows flow is the only reason to be at Encore so they’re holding it over their heads during negots. Don’t expect to see a concrete finalized LOU until a CBA is reached but expect to one for sure. DON’T expect any shuffling of positions, lawsuits, grievances or any bullshit like that. It’s just not happening.
Always has been. But now with AC hiring so many jazz pilots, jazz having fast upgrades themselves, why would you come to WJ? The tables have turned indeed.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:11 amEncore can’t afford to lose any more pilots to mainline without parking airplanes. While Encore was the fastest route to AC two years ago, the tables have turned and now the fastest way to a WJ 737 is through Jazz.sullecpt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:17 amWhy does WJ mainline even hire OTS? I mean, I know a handful of Encore Captains who have been there several years and still havent had the opportunity to flow up. Why not make the hires 100% from encore? It must be a little frustrating seeing waiting for the call when half the 737 classes are outside hires.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Anyway, the WestJet contract hasn't even been finalized, and any clause can be amended if all involved parties agree to the change. Any OTS pilot taking a job at WestJet should understand very clearly that there's a 99% chance they'll be behind hundreds of Encore pilots in seniority, and there's no point going into the job expecting that they'll be able to change it. All the OTS pilots who are salty about falling in behind Encore knew exactly what the deal was when they were hired, and trying to alter the terms of the seniority list to their own benefit would be a selfish act that would earn them the disrespect of hundreds of their peers.
Even Trumpy-whatever, under one of his numerous other usernames, came to the conclusion that it was too late to file a DFR months ago. He just resents Encore pilots for having the audacity to try to improve their working conditions, and not just be slaves who benefit the value of his shares. Don't buy into the crap.