Time for Transat pilot future poll

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What will happen to Transat pilots if AC purchase Transat

Date of hire, merge seniority list with Air Canada
47
39%
BOTL at Air Canada
12
10%
BOTL but pay protected at Air Canada
31
26%
Transat rebrand as Rouge and stay a separate company
31
26%
 
Total votes: 121

Mart
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Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Mart » Thu May 16, 2019 7:20 am

Now that AC is within 30 days of purchasing Transat, I guess it is time for a poll to see what do you think will happens to Transat pilots if this deal goes through. :?:
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by pianokeys » Thu May 16, 2019 7:26 am

OR here is a wildcard, AC goes to a B list scale, Transat to top of list as a consolation prize. Its not like that hasnt happened before.
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Goldencondor
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Goldencondor » Thu May 16, 2019 4:20 pm

Realistically it might not be DOH neither BOTL. AT group employees will not loose anything most likely protected on status/equipment/base and keep vacation entitlement. Negotiations will happen and some sort of ratio will come up to transfer some sort of seniority. Pay will be topped up for some and some will even get a raise depending on where they are on the pay scale. When it comes to equipment bidding or a move down due to a down turn in the economy seniority is everything and both groups will defend their own. I do have skin in the game but both AC and AT pilot did not asked for this. This is only a really good business decision for both companies. Now lets figure the human variable in the equation. Both sides will have to give up something, that is the recepie for a good contract. I forecast an end of the flat pay at AC to sweeten the pot.
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Duke Point
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Duke Point » Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 pm

Choice #4 is dumb because Calin already said that TransAT will be folded into Mainline should this pass.

People who chose that option have no idea how the Mainline/Rouge ratio works either.

DP.
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leftoftrack
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by leftoftrack » Thu May 16, 2019 9:45 pm

Duke, Are you just now figuring out that avcanada should be viewed as entertainment and not a true source of information?
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Victory
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Victory » Fri May 17, 2019 6:21 am

Duke Point wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:15 pm
Calin already said that TransAT will be folded into Mainline should this pass.
No he didn't.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by altiplano » Fri May 17, 2019 7:13 am

It can't all go to Rouge.

No WB growth room at Rouge so the 330s have to go Mainline and won't be counted as WB growth aircraft for the LCC growth ratio.

The 320/321s could go to Rouge within any growth ratio room available. I'm not sure where we're at on that, you'd have to check with Scope committee or your elected rep. But I don't think there is room for much... several Rouge 320s have been added already, more are coming.

If they went to Mainline they won't be LCC ratio growth aircraft either.

Most of these aircraft are coming to mainline.
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Mart
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Mart » Fri May 17, 2019 3:50 pm

I’m surprised to see such close result and BOTL been the very last.

Did ACPA and other Canadian pilot finally learn from past mistakes? I guess will see next year where everyone are standing. 🤔
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Dry Guy » Fri May 17, 2019 4:04 pm

Mart wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:50 pm
I’m surprised to see such close result and BOTL been the very last.

Did ACPA and other Canadian pilot finally learn from past mistakes? I guess will see next year where everyone are standing. 🤔
The BOTL vote is split 3 ways. It's a poorly crafted poll.
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ahramin
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by ahramin » Fri May 17, 2019 6:08 pm

1.05 Merger or Change of Control
On each occasion that the Company and/or its Successors or Affiliates are involved in a merger or in the event of a Change of Control of the Company, the following will apply:
1.05.01 Within 10 days of the Company’s decision to effect a Change of Control or enter into a Merger, the Company will notify ACPA of the same and will provide updates as significant information becomes available. Any confidential information shared with ACPA in relation to a Change of Control or Merger will be the subject of a proper confidentiality undertaking.
1.05.02 This Agreement will remain in full force and effect and the recognition now in effect issued by the Canada Industrial Relations Board (Board) will not be affected in any way except as otherwise governed by the Canada Labour Code or as directed by the Board.
1.05.03 The Company will enter into negotiations with ACPA relative to protection of employees' seniority and other existing or new conditions of this Agreement. Failing settlement, provisions of the Canada Labour Code will apply.
1.05.04 No Pilot who suffers a reduction in his or her Position as a result of a Change of Control or Merger will suffer any loss of pay.
1.05.05 No Pilot will be involuntarily relocated from one Base to another as a result of a Change of Control or Merger.
1.05.06 ACPA has the right in its sole discretion, upon written notice to the Company within 60 days from the date of the Change of Control or Merger event and, subject to the requirements under the Canada Labour Code, to either:
1.05.06.01 extend the duration of this Agreement for a period of one, two, or three years at ACPA’s option, beyond its original expiration with annual across-the-board wage, expense, benefit and MPU increases equivalent to the increase, if any, in the consumer price index plus 2% to be effective on the original expiration date and on each annual anniversary of the original expiration date thereafter; or,
1.05.06.02 amend the expiration date of the Collective Agreement to an earlier date; such date will be no earlier than 60 days from the date of the aforementioned written notice to the Company.
1.05.07 Air Canada mainline ASMs will be consolidated, if applicable, with the mainline ASMs of the other carrier and its affiliate(s).
1.05.08 Air Canada’s Capacity Purchase Agreement ASMs will be consolidated, if applicable, with the other carrier’s and its affiliate’s Capacity Purchase Agreement or Regional Carrier ASMs;
1.05.09 Any such new consolidated Mainline/Capacity Purchase Agreement ASM ratio will be maintained as the new Mainline/Capacity Purchase Agreement carrier ratio.
1.05.10 If Air Canada is involved in a merger or acquisition and the pilots of the merged or acquired carrier are consolidated with Air Canada’s Pilots, then any aircraft of the merged carrier that are added to the mainline fleet shall not count as Mainline Baseline WJA, Mainline Baseline NJA, Mainline Growth WJA, Mainline Growth NJA, or for the Growth Ratios as defined in L74.01.
From what I can figure out,

1. The seniority list gets negotiated and if the pilots can't come to an agreement, the arbitrator will impose one. Certainly the AC pilots will insist on BOTL, as per 4.01.02
For greater clarity, in the event of any future declaration of common employer status and/or declaration of sale of business; purchase or merger of airlines or parts thereof; or other combination of flying operations under the Company, the seniority of employees who are to be added to the seniority list as a result of such an event will commence no earlier than the date of the issuance of any CIRB order regarding the declaration of common employer status and/or sale of business, the date of the future purchase or merger of airlines, or the date of such other future combination of flying operations, as the case may be.
2. The union can unilaterally cut the current Collective Agreement short and renegotiate, but will probably be too busy trying to thrash the incoming TS pilot's working conditions to bother improving their own.

3. If the TS pilots get anything other than BOTL, Montreal becomes a much more senior base, but anyone currently holding it cannot be displaced. If Montreal is your goal, maybe it's time to bid it now.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by confusedalot » Fri May 17, 2019 7:46 pm

Ummmh........

Jazz never got a pilot merger. Neither did Sky regional, Georgian, or EVAS, or anyone else for that matter. Canadian got a horrible almost, but not quite, botl deal shoved down their throats. Something like a 1 in5 deal, can't quite recall right now. Worse still, all approved by a federal judge.

I am missing something? Maybe I did not get the astrophysics memo about the universe changing?
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by ahramin » Fri May 17, 2019 7:54 pm

Is Jazz, Sky Regional, Georgian, or EVAS owned by Air Canada? Were they ever declared common employer? If not then I don't see the relevance Confusedalot.

As for the Canadian merger, I think it could be highly relevant but I don't know the details. I've seen the aftermath as I still run into the odd lunatic raving about it, but does anyone have the actual details?
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Fanblade » Fri May 17, 2019 8:41 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:46 pm
Ummmh........

Canadian got a horrible almost, but not quite, botl deal shoved down their throats. Something like a 1 in5 deal, can't quite recall right now. Worse still, all approved by a federal judge.
I think Trump calls that fake news. On the other hand you do freely admit you are confused a lot.

The bottom 1/3 of the AC/Canadian list was merged at a ratio of 8:1. Thats 8 AC pilots for every 1 Canadian. The bottom 1/3 of the list comprised of 800 AC pilots and 100 Canadian pilots.

The Canadian pilots primarily merged with the top 2/3 of the AC list.

It’s a perfect example of how off the rails things can go if left in the hands of an arbitrator.

This is simple.

Fair. And I don’t mean that in a biased way.

Welcome AT pilots. Don’t take the BS on this forum as the average AC perspective.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by BigQ » Sat May 18, 2019 4:20 pm

First Air Canada Rouge, now Air Canada Blue

Image
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confusedalot
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by confusedalot » Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:41 pm
confusedalot wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:46 pm
Ummmh........

Canadian got a horrible almost, but not quite, botl deal shoved down their throats. Something like a 1 in5 deal, can't quite recall right now. Worse still, all approved by a federal judge.
I think Trump calls that fake news. On the other hand you do freely admit you are confused a lot.

The bottom 1/3 of the AC/Canadian list was merged at a ratio of 8:1. Thats 8 AC pilots for every 1 Canadian. The bottom 1/3 of the list comprised of 800 AC pilots and 100 Canadian pilots.

The Canadian pilots primarily merged with the top 2/3 of the AC list.

It’s a perfect example of how off the rails things can go if left in the hands of an arbitrator.

This is simple.

Fair. And I don’t mean that in a biased way.

Welcome AT pilots. Don’t take the BS on this forum as the average AC perspective.
So 8 to 1 is a fair deal..........

I say again.....8 to 1 is a fair deal.

What was that about fake news?

Victors always rewrite history for their own purposes.

Of course, they busted their chops for decades and they deserve 8 to 1.

Yeah......right......
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Fanblade » Sat May 18, 2019 9:51 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:41 pm
confusedalot wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 7:46 pm
Ummmh........

Canadian got a horrible almost, but not quite, botl deal shoved down their throats. Something like a 1 in5 deal, can't quite recall right now. Worse still, all approved by a federal judge.
I think Trump calls that fake news. On the other hand you do freely admit you are confused a lot.

The bottom 1/3 of the AC/Canadian list was merged at a ratio of 8:1. Thats 8 AC pilots for every 1 Canadian. The bottom 1/3 of the list comprised of 800 AC pilots and 100 Canadian pilots.

The Canadian pilots primarily merged with the top 2/3 of the AC list.

It’s a perfect example of how off the rails things can go if left in the hands of an arbitrator.

This is simple.

Fair. And I don’t mean that in a biased way.

Welcome AT pilots. Don’t take the BS on this forum as the average AC perspective.
So 8 to 1 is a fair deal..........

I say again.....8 to 1 is a fair deal.

What was that about fake news?

Victors always rewrite history for their own purposes.

Of course, they busted their chops for decades and they deserve 8 to 1.

Yeah......right......
Now I'm confused. Probably serves me right for engaging.

The bottom 1/3 of the the combined AC/CDN list was 88% AC pilots.

This is what you wrote and it is completely fabricated. You have it backwards.


Canadian got a horrible almost, but not quite, botl deal shoved down their throats. Something like a 1 in5 deal, can't quite recall right now. Worse still, all approved by a federal judge.

Completely false

It was an 8:1 AC pilot end tail

I guess you have one part right.

Victors always rewrite history for their own purposes
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leftoftrack
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by leftoftrack » Sat May 18, 2019 10:30 pm

what happened to the top 2/3rds of the list?
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thesimplelife
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by thesimplelife » Sat May 18, 2019 11:00 pm

If I remember what I was told a while ago some were relative seniority, some DOH formula and then the bottom 8:1.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by Fanblade » Sun May 19, 2019 12:15 am

Varying ratios based on WB CA, NB CA, WB FO, and NB FO.

But it’s more complicated than that. After that ratio was established a re ratio was placed on top. The re ratio skewed the original intent as it moved down the list to the point that there was hardly any CDN left to merge with for the bottom 1/3 of the AC list.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by TheStig » Sun May 19, 2019 9:25 am

nd The AC/Cdn merger left everyone with a bad taste in their mouth because it was the forced marriage of two failing businesses that watched their combined market share dwindle. It's noteworthy that no pilots who lived through it have commented here, they've moved on, it was nearly two decades ago.

AC's purchase of TS isn't another chapter in the story its a different genre. No doubt there will still be pilots who feel they didn't get a fair deal and will make outlandish demands, so be it. Hopefully the leadership of both groups can get together and find common goals, figure out the key objectives and focus on achieving them.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by thesimplelife » Sun May 19, 2019 12:08 pm

TheStig wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:25 am
nd The AC/Cdn merger left everyone with a bad taste in their mouth because it was the forced marriage of two failing businesses that watched their combined market share dwindle. It's noteworthy that no pilots who lived through it have commented here, they've moved on, it was nearly two decades ago.

AC's purchase of TS isn't another chapter in the story its a different genre. No doubt there will still be pilots who feel they didn't get a fair deal and will make outlandish demands, so be it. Hopefully the leadership of both groups can get together and find common goals, figure out the key objectives and focus on achieving them.
Merge the lists, get rid of 4 year status pay, 5-10% bump across the board, improvements to the reserve rules and pension and I'd be content. It's a lot to ask for but hey, get all that and we're still well behind every carrier in the USA. Oh, and no more 10 year contracts.

When I got my offer letter I remember it saying something about wanting to be a top 10 global airline. Well, maybe it's time to start paying like a top 10 global airline.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by RVR6000 » Sun May 19, 2019 9:13 pm

The top scale Transat A330 captain has a lower pay rate than a A320 captain at AC. Essentially Transat Seniority #1 currently makes less on paper than a seniority number 3200ish that holds a A320 captain position at AC.

Let that sink in. The Transat pilots have landed a windfall of a lifetime. Even a DOH merge would be a huge upside for these guys/gals.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by DanWEC » Sun May 19, 2019 10:26 pm

RVR6000 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:13 pm
The top scale Transat A330 captain has a lower pay rate than a A320 captain at AC. Essentially Transat Seniority #1 currently makes less on paper than a seniority number 3200ish that holds a A320 captain position at AC.

Let that sink in. The Transat pilots have landed a windfall of a lifetime. Even a DOH merge would be a huge upside for these guys/gals.
Is a top rate AC 320 more than 224/hr? I'm not quite sure if this is accurate. Plus, the schedule was the BIG draw at TS.
Regardless, hoping for positivity all around.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by RVR6000 » Mon May 20, 2019 2:47 am

DanWEC wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 10:26 pm
RVR6000 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:13 pm
The top scale Transat A330 captain has a lower pay rate than a A320 captain at AC. Essentially Transat Seniority #1 currently makes less on paper than a seniority number 3200ish that holds a A320 captain position at AC.

Let that sink in. The Transat pilots have landed a windfall of a lifetime. Even a DOH merge would be a huge upside for these guys/gals.
Is a top rate AC 320 more than 224/hr? I'm not quite sure if this is accurate. Plus, the schedule was the BIG draw at TS.
Regardless, hoping for positivity all around.
It’s $220/hr (day/night blend).

www.airlinepilotcentral.com shows Transat Capt. tops out at approx. $175K.
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Re: Time for Transat pilot future poll

Post by TSAM » Mon May 20, 2019 2:55 am

TS top is 223.30/hr, try not to quote notorious outdated info
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