So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

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So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by Jet Jockey » Mon May 20, 2019 6:24 pm

Trump, the Republicans and Boeing are all liars...

The MAX needs to be re-certified and pilots need to get the proper training both in class and in the sim before this thing is allowed to fly again, period!

These pilots knew what was coming and yet they couldn't get control over the MAX until they started using an old technic not used or taught for decades even in America and in the process lost 8000 feet of altitude.

Basically all those advocating that the superior US pilots would have saved the day in both MAX crashes are wrong because both flight never got high enough to used the old flying technic used in the video.

Also take into account the element of surprise, the fact the pilots didn't know about MCAS and how it can actually override you and pitch the nose down and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's a shame a once proud and great company like Boeing stoops so low in trying to blame "foreign" pilots for the crashes... William Boeing must be spinning in his grave in disbelief at how his company is handling this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHBz2-YpWE
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by confusedalot » Mon May 20, 2019 7:18 pm

Sad situation indeed with the loss of life.

BUT, flown Boeing's for a large part of my time on this planet with zero problems.

As far as the max is concerned, just another 737 updated model. I flew it. The previous 800 version that is.

So...... The whole yadda yadda conversation about mcas has been covered to death. Sure, Boeing screwed up, not because of the system, but because they did not tell the drivers about it. The company tries to make idiot proof airplanes and they generally succeed, this time they dropped the ball, only because they figured to not tell the idiots about a system. Bad decision in retrospect.

Electra's disintegrated in flight, comets crashed because of vibrations, and so on.

Not so sure that trashing Boeing is the way to go.

For those who know their stuff, you could pull up quite a few airbus weaknesses, along with just about every other airplane maker.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by iflyforpie » Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm

No, it's not quite the same.

The Ethiopian pilots performed Boeing's recommendations exactly... and now they were left with an aircraft so badly out of trim that they could not manually retrim it due to the aerodynamic loads. The only option they had was to reengage the stab trim cutout to try and get some assistance from the stab trim motors, but that reactivated the MCAS. Something interesting is that the trim wheels on the MAX are about 1 inch smaller in diameter than on all other 737s... reducing the amount of leverage the pilots have on it.

This system should have never been approved in an airliner. Yes, there should have been training about the existence of the system and how to properly deal with it as it doesn't manifest itself as or can be dealt with like a normal trim runaway. But there also should have been a way or several ways to positively and permanently disengage it without affecting other control systems. There should also have been redundancy by using both AoAs and miscompare/no compare conditions to deactivate it should one vane give erroneous readings.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by Jet Jockey » Mon May 20, 2019 7:42 pm

The Comet crashed because of metal fatigue something not well known then and yes passengers and crews paid dearly for it and so did the plane.

Like I said this was an aircraft company that came out with outstanding aircrafts in the past, the 747 will probably one of its greatest aircraft ever. It was a proud company that stood for what was best in America. Not they have bean counters running the show and it is no more what it used to be.

However the MAX is totally different... There is no excuse for this BS.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by altiplano » Mon May 20, 2019 7:46 pm

Jet Jockey wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:24 pm
Trump, the Republicans and Boeing are all liars...

The MAX needs to be re-certified and pilots need to get the proper training both in class and in the sim before this thing is allowed to fly again, period!

These pilots knew what was coming and yet they couldn't get control over the MAX until they started using an old technic not used or taught for decades even in America and in the process lost 8000 feet of altitude.

Basically all those advocating that the superior US pilots would have saved the day in both MAX crashes are wrong because both flight never got high enough to used the old flying technic used in the video.

Also take into account the element of surprise, the fact the pilots didn't know about MCAS and how it can actually override you and pitch the nose down and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's a shame a once proud and great company like Boeing stoops so low in trying to blame "foreign" pilots for the crashes... William Boeing must be spinning in his grave in disbelief at how his company is handling this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHBz2-YpWE
LOL would you believe that dummy? What are his credentials? Selective interpretation of an ill-informed media?

Maybe 8000 cumulative feet lost, but 8000 cumulative feet gained after all the ups and downs in the "rollercoaster".

I'm an average pilot and I managed it with the malfunction coming on below 2000' in a Cat D sim.

What kind of sim was that? looked like a home built job? Who are the pilots? Flight simmers? Absolutely zero credibility in that video.

Don't get me wrong... Is there work to be done? Yes, absolutely.
But drop the bullshit hype clickbait from assholes and outlets trying to get likes or subscribes or traffic or whatever. They know nothing. Fake news if there ever was.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by Jet Jockey » Mon May 20, 2019 8:05 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:46 pm
Jet Jockey wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:24 pm
Trump, the Republicans and Boeing are all liars...

The MAX needs to be re-certified and pilots need to get the proper training both in class and in the sim before this thing is allowed to fly again, period!

These pilots knew what was coming and yet they couldn't get control over the MAX until they started using an old technic not used or taught for decades even in America and in the process lost 8000 feet of altitude.

Basically all those advocating that the superior US pilots would have saved the day in both MAX crashes are wrong because both flight never got high enough to used the old flying technic used in the video.

Also take into account the element of surprise, the fact the pilots didn't know about MCAS and how it can actually override you and pitch the nose down and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's a shame a once proud and great company like Boeing stoops so low in trying to blame "foreign" pilots for the crashes... William Boeing must be spinning in his grave in disbelief at how his company is handling this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHBz2-YpWE
I'm an average pilot and I managed it with the malfunction coming on below 2000' in a Cat D sim.
WOW! You flew a Cat D sim! Don't we all fly Cat D sims for our training?

Was this an Air Canada 737 MAX sim? If yes, I hope you realise that Boeing now admits that the MAX sims are badly programmed, flawed and do not accurately represent what happens in the real aircraft when it comes to the MCAS problems.

You Boeing apologists are all the same... They fvcked up big time and I hope they pay big time!

I only hope that the next MAX crash is not an Air Canada one.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by Old fella » Mon May 20, 2019 8:32 pm

Not that I know a lot, especially on B737 types as I know less than sweet f@ck all however as altiplano indicated that sim presentation kinda looks ... well different and the dude giving this"presentation" doesn't strike me as having in depth knowledge on B737 ops as it relates to the accident in question.That visual sim display looks much like one sees on the Discovery Channel Mayday series that has been ongoing past few years. This youtube video to me appears to be amateurish at best and I would be willing to question its credibility, then again perhaps I am wrong.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by oldncold » Mon May 20, 2019 9:23 pm

I still haven't got a strait answer to this question> have the Boeing brain trust software engineers. written in to the updated software allowances for micro burst windshear events. we all know the training is max power and nose up to the stick shaker my? even though Boeing manuals say mcas isn't active with flaps deployed. would the mcas still activate a nose down push against the stick shaker in a windshear event because the now newlymanditory dual aoa sensors
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by oldncold » Mon May 20, 2019 9:26 pm

and further more if this microburst windshear event happened just after flap retraction
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by L39Guy » Tue May 21, 2019 2:41 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm
No, it's not quite the same.

The Ethiopian pilots performed Boeing's recommendations exactly... and now they were left with an aircraft so badly out of trim that they could not manually retrim it due to the aerodynamic loads. The only option they had was to reengage the stab trim cutout to try and get some assistance from the stab trim motors, but that reactivated the MCAS. Something interesting is that the trim wheels on the MAX are about 1 inch smaller in diameter than on all other 737s... reducing the amount of leverage the pilots have on it.

This system should have never been approved in an airliner. Yes, there should have been training about the existence of the system and how to properly deal with it as it doesn't manifest itself as or can be dealt with like a normal trim runaway. But there also should have been a way or several ways to positively and permanently disengage it without affecting other control systems. There should also have been redundancy by using both AoAs and miscompare/no compare conditions to deactivate it should one vane give erroneous readings.
The Ethiopian pilots did not do a single thing that Boeing recommended. They did not do an Unreliable Airspeed drill from the moment they lifted off to when the flaps were retracted and MCAS kicked in. Specifically, they did not pull the power back and set an attitude and disengage autothrust and, in fact, they tried to engage the autopilot, contrary to the UAS drill.

They did not fly the aircraft and allowed the speed to build to Vne (340 knots plus), making manual trim impossible. They re-engaged the stab trim contrary to Boeing’s Stab Trim Runaway procedure. And remember, this was after Boeing issued an AD which it appears was not passed onto the Ethiopian pilots.

But how do you explain the fact that the Lion Air incident crew did the UAS drill, controlled the speed of the aircraft, did the Stab Trim Runaway procedure (with some prompting from a jumpseat pilot) then flew to their destination and hour and a half away in stick shaker using the (small) manual trim wheel?
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by complexintentions » Tue May 21, 2019 5:55 am

Youtube videos by "Professor Simon, EU Resident" featuring some bizarro homemade sim in someone's basement. Rambling on about "technic".

Seems legit. :lol:
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by FICU » Tue May 21, 2019 6:50 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm
No, it's not quite the same.

The Ethiopian pilots performed Boeing's recommendations exactly... and now they were left with an aircraft so badly out of trim that they could not manually retrim it due to the aerodynamic loads.
The Ethiopian pilot did not use everything that was available to him to counteract the nose down trim. He barely touched the functioning manual electric trim and used control wheel back pressure to bring the nose up. When the stab trim switches were cut-out the trim was under 2.5. When MCAS first activated the trim was at 4.6. Had he trimmed out the control wheel forces, then used the cut-out switches and reduced the thrust I'm pretty sure he would have been able to manage the aircraft to a safe landing just as the Lion Air crew did in the flight prior to the first accident.

The Lion Air Captain who had no idea about MCAS used manual electric trim constantly to over ride the MCAS and bring the nose up. However they never used the cut-out switches and it seems once control was handed over to the F/O the control was lost.

The Lion Air Captain used manual electric stab trim over 30 times after MCAS activated. The Ethiopian Captain used it 2 times after MCAS activated before cutting out the stab trim with the switches and relied on physical control wheel back pressure.

Compare the FDR graphs from both accident flights... pilot error was definitely a contributing factor in both.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by tbaylx » Tue May 21, 2019 7:02 am

FICU wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:50 am
iflyforpie wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm
No, it's not quite the same.

The Ethiopian pilots performed Boeing's recommendations exactly... and now they were left with an aircraft so badly out of trim that they could not manually retrim it due to the aerodynamic loads.
The Ethiopian pilot did not use everything that was available to him to counteract the nose down trim. He barely touched the functioning manual electric trim and used control wheel back pressure to bring the nose up. When the stab trim switches were cut-out the trim was under 2.5. When MCAS first activated the trim was at 4.6. Had he trimmed out the control wheel forces, then used the cut-out switches and reduced the thrust I'm pretty sure he would have been able to manage the aircraft to a safe landing just as the Lion Air crew did in the flight prior to the first accident.

The Lion Air Captain who had no idea about MCAS used manual electric trim constantly to over ride the MCAS and bring the nose up. However they never used the cut-out switches and it seems once control was handed over to the F/O the control was lost.

Compare the FDR graphs from both accident flights... pilot error was definitely a contributing factor in both.
Not to mention the reason the Ethiopian crew could not trim manually is because they never retarded the thrust levers and got the aircraft into 340kts + regime.
That’s a long way from perfect execution..
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 21, 2019 7:23 am

Jet Jockey wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:05 pm
altiplano wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:46 pm
Jet Jockey wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:24 pm
Trump, the Republicans and Boeing are all liars...

The MAX needs to be re-certified and pilots need to get the proper training both in class and in the sim before this thing is allowed to fly again, period!

These pilots knew what was coming and yet they couldn't get control over the MAX until they started using an old technic not used or taught for decades even in America and in the process lost 8000 feet of altitude.

Basically all those advocating that the superior US pilots would have saved the day in both MAX crashes are wrong because both flight never got high enough to used the old flying technic used in the video.

Also take into account the element of surprise, the fact the pilots didn't know about MCAS and how it can actually override you and pitch the nose down and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's a shame a once proud and great company like Boeing stoops so low in trying to blame "foreign" pilots for the crashes... William Boeing must be spinning in his grave in disbelief at how his company is handling this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHBz2-YpWE
I'm an average pilot and I managed it with the malfunction coming on below 2000' in a Cat D sim.
WOW! You flew a Cat D sim! Don't we all fly Cat D sims for our training?

Was this an Air Canada 737 MAX sim? If yes, I hope you realise that Boeing now admits that the MAX sims are badly programmed, flawed and do not accurately represent what happens in the real aircraft when it comes to the MCAS problems.

You Boeing apologists are all the same... They fvcked up big time and I hope they pay big time!

I only hope that the next MAX crash is not an Air Canada one.
Give the condescension a rest.

That video is full of so much bullshit and scare crap for the average lay person, that's my problem. It utterly lacks any credibility. I have no problems with acknowledging Boeing's faults here, but I'm allergic to this type of social media bullshit laced with inaccuracies.

The sim in that video certainly wasn't a Cat of anysort...

They showed a video of the bottom of some sort of full motion sim, then the inside of what appears to be sort of an NG, not a Max, I don't even think there was a right seat in it... why was he flying and managing the drill himself? Why was it so dark? Why was he wearing his uniform?

I did the rollercoaster and the control forces are very very high, you need 2 people to pull back at times, then you need one person to trim when you let go...

The sim can't replicate the exact fault, but pretty close in terms of handling.

I can't believe you'd throw in that last part... get a fucking brain...
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 21, 2019 7:27 am

complexintentions wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 5:55 am
Youtube videos by "Professor Simon, EU Resident" featuring some bizarro homemade sim in someone's basement. Rambling on about "technic".

Seems legit. :lol:
Exactly.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by bobcaygeon » Tue May 21, 2019 8:05 am

ALPA is pretty anal and they recommended only classroom. No Sim required.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by shimmydampner » Tue May 21, 2019 5:24 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 7:23 am
They showed a video of the bottom of some sort of full motion sim, then the inside of what appears to be sort of an NG, not a Max, I don't even think there was a right seat in it... why was he flying and managing the drill himself? Why was it so dark? Why was he wearing his uniform?
It's not as though that old fella conducted the experiments himself, he's just gathering information, and regardless of what stock video some toiling crank cobbled together in his basement to make that video, I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees here. It seems to me the intention behind the video was to expose what a foolish and pointless thing it was to say that an American crew would have saved the day. Maybe some, but almost certainly not all. Hell, even an Indonesian crew managed to save the thing one out of two times. The only point of a politician making a statement like that is to kowtow to his corporate overlords in an effort to stop their stock prices from falling a few extra cents so he can keep justifying his kick backs. To me that's way more gross than some nutter loosely connecting some dots he found on the internet.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by confusedalot » Tue May 21, 2019 6:31 pm

Read through the thread; man, I need to get a life instead of looking at a smartfone.....

But anyways, you are all right about boeing dropping the ball on this one. Shutting the place down and throwing everyone in jail will not solve squat.

Said it before, ended up doing all of that sim level d sim bs stuff because of circumstance. This notion about a high class simulator being the end all and be all about the truth of aviation is seriously misplaced.......

Excuse the language, a sim is nothing more than a multimillion dollar video game. Meaning that it is just a game. Great tool, but not the real deal. They, the employees, also make a huge amount of technical errors.

Would you but a video game player doing his battle stuff in the real deal? Of course not, video games and reality are two distinct worlds. Real life has a tendancy to disregard the rules.

Anyways, point being that no amount of sim exposure would have changed the situation.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by jjj » Tue May 21, 2019 8:30 pm

The exercise used the roller coaster technique as a way to intervene from the same point when the Ethiopian pilots turned the Stab Cut Out switches off...

This does not indicate that an MCAS failure is not recoverable at low altitude. It indicates that late recognition/intervention requires the extreme manoeuvre.

This video does not debunk the caliber of pilots in the Max crashes as being a relevant cause and that the same disastrous outcome is inevitable at the hands of Western pilots.

Nice try.
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by complexintentions » Wed May 22, 2019 1:14 am

@jjj

Exactly. Any situation can become unrecoverable if you allow it to proceed way too far without the correct intervention. I hate straw man videos like this amateurish clickbait shit.

@confusedalot

Not sure what your point is - that simulator time has little value? Have to strongly disagree with that one. Of course it is a simulation, but I'll take practising complex failures in one over no training at all, any day. Even if you disagree to the value of their ability to reproduce the real world faithfully - and I'd argue the latest ones are incredibly realistic - they most assuredly allow practicing procedures and more importantly, judgment and management of scenarios.

The objection to the sim in the video is that it doesn't appear to be capable of proving anything. But the sim argument is irrelevant for the MCAS anyway as there is/was no sim training for the system.

Incidentally they've shown that video gamers often turn out to be superior military drone pilots. Something about hand-eye coordination...
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Re: So even the greatest pilots in the world (Americans) couldn't save you from the MAX...

Post by Jet Jockey » Wed May 22, 2019 4:31 am

“It's not as though that old fella conducted the experiments himself, he's just gathering information, and regardless of what stock video some toiling crank cobbled together in his basement to make that video, I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees here. It seems to me the intention behind the video was to expose what a foolish and pointless thing it was to say that an American crew would have saved the day. Maybe some, but almost certainly not all. Hell, even an Indonesian crew managed to save the thing one out of two times. The only point of a politician making a statement like that is to kowtow to his corporate overlords in an effort to stop their stock prices from falling a few extra cents so he can keep justifying his kick backs. To me that's way more gross than some nutter loosely connecting some dots he found on the internet.”


That is exactly the point!
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