Rouge upgrades seats and service

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C-GGGQ
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Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by C-GGGQ »

https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rvice.html

So maybe the plan is to fold Transat into rouge?
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Daniel Cooper »

That is what many people predicted. There could also be a three tier product with Transat as an ULCC but that seems a bit complicated.
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DrSpaceman
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by DrSpaceman »

Rouge president also just left
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Dry Guy
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Dry Guy »

Is there anything to stop Air Canada getting Swooped like WestJet did?
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:48 am
Is there anything to stop Air Canada getting Swooped like WestJet did?
The contract.
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Dry Guy »

That's good. Why did WestJet not have such language? Just didn't foresee they execs betraying them?
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Just curious how many pilot are currently at Rouge ie. how many are required to operate at the Rouge current size?
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Fanblade »

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:27 am
Just curious how many pilot are currently at Rouge ie. how many are required to operate at the Rouge current size?
768
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Almost same number as Transat. Interesting.
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Fanblade
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Fanblade »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:15 am
https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rvice.html

So maybe the plan is to fold Transat into rouge?
They can’t. However Transat could largely replace Rouge. Rouge is already at its max Widebody size allowed by contract. They don’t even have much more room for narrow bodies. There is even a specific clause in the contract stating a merger can not be used to increase the size of Rouge. They could however park an equivalent number of 767’s at Rouge as Transat has 330’s.

Initially AC needs the lift with the 737 out of service. I suspect that down the road, a year or two out, Rouge parks the 767 and morph into Transat. These two entities are competitors with significant overlap.

The AC pilot group doesn’t have an appetite to see the low cost division expand. Nor do I think AC has the need or desire for a leisure carrier twice its current size. Rouge/Transat, whatever it’s called a couple years out, won’t be much larger than Rouge is today. Unless of course the contract is altered. But again unless AC wipes out the two tier pay scale? I doubt it. To be clear I doubt AC will be willing to get rid of the two pay scales.

So my guess is status quo for now with Rouge 767 reductions down the road as it morphs into Rouge/Transat.

It will certainly take care of AC’s current and projected pilot shortfall though. Two birds with one stone. This is why the bottom half of the AC pilots are so concerned. What they thought was to be hiring below them may turn into integration above them.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Fri May 24, 2019 9:39 am, edited 8 times in total.

fish4life
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by fish4life »

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:21 am
That's good. Why did WestJet not have such language? Just didn't foresee they execs betraying them?
They never had a contract at the time just an agreement that never held much weight.
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by C-GGGQ »

Fanblade wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:10 am
C-GGGQ wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:15 am
https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rvice.html

So maybe the plan is to fold Transat into rouge?
They can’t. However Transat could largely replace Rouge. Rouge is already at its max Widebody size allowed by contract. They don’t even have much more room for narrow bodies. There is even a specific clause in the contract stating a merger can not be used to increase the size of Rouge. They could however park an equivalent number of 767’s at Rouge as Transat has 330’s.

Initially AC needs the lift with the 737 out of service. I suspect that down the road, a year or two out, Rouge parks the 767 and morph into Transat. These two entities are competitors with significant overlap.

The AC pilot group doesn’t have an appetite to see the low cost division expand. Nor do I think AC has the need or desire for a leisure carrier twice its current size. Rouge/Transat, whatever it’s called a couple years out, won’t be much larger than Rouge is today. Unless of course the contract is altered. But again unless AC wipes out the two tier pay scale? I doubt it. To be clear I doubt AC will be willing to get rid of the two pay scales.

So my guess is status quo for now with Rouge 767 reductions down the road as it morphs into Rouge/Transat.

It will certainly take care of AC’s current and projected pilot shortfall though.
Yes, I suppose I worded that poorly. That's in essence what I was getting at.
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Capt. Underpants »

I agree they can't use a takeover to grow Rouge, but by the same token, the contract stipulates that all AC flying above the scope limit must be done by ACPA pilots. IOW, they could not keep Air Transat separate without an LOU. Once AC owns TS, ACPA owns the flying.
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by C-GGGQ »

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the general thinking is that Transat cannot get merged into Rouge because of
1: the ratio
2: acpa "owns" the flying.

For 2: that will only hold true if the representation vote stays with acpa correct?

For 1: wouldn't the ratio just have to stay the same? As in rouge can't take ALL the planes but can in fact "grow" as long as the mainline fleet grows equally?
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Fanblade »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:11 pm
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the general thinking is that Transat cannot get merged into Rouge because of
1: the ratio
2: acpa "owns" the flying.

For 2: that will only hold true if the representation vote stays with acpa correct?

For 1: wouldn't the ratio just have to stay the same? As in rouge can't take ALL the planes but can in fact "grow" as long as the mainline fleet grows equally?
It's completely contractual. It does not matter who the representative is.

Acquisition can not be used toward Rouge growth.

Rouge can not grow without ACPA agreeing.

If you are not on the AC pilot seniority list you can not fly aircraft above 80ish seats on behalf of AC.

If the acquisition goes through the two groups will integrate. If the acquisition goes through:

The combined Rouge/Transat fleet will have to shrink particularly the widebodies. Probably the Rouge 767.
Or
Transat will merge mostly with mainline.
Or
ACPA would agree to let Rouge /Transat grow in exchange for something.

That's all the options there are. They are all a possibility. I think the least likely is number 3.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Fri May 24, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by BTD »

Fanblade wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:10 am
C-GGGQ wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:15 am
https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airline ... rvice.html

So maybe the plan is to fold Transat into rouge?
They can’t. However Transat could largely replace Rouge. Rouge is already at its max Widebody size allowed by contract. They don’t even have much more room for narrow bodies. There is even a specific clause in the contract stating a merger can not be used to increase the size of Rouge. They could however park an equivalent number of 767’s at Rouge as Transat has 330’s.

Initially AC needs the lift with the 737 out of service. I suspect that down the road, a year or two out, Rouge parks the 767 and morph into Transat. These two entities are competitors with significant overlap.

The AC pilot group doesn’t have an appetite to see the low cost division expand. Nor do I think AC has the need or desire for a leisure carrier twice its current size. Rouge/Transat, whatever it’s called a couple years out, won’t be much larger than Rouge is today. Unless of course the contract is altered. But again unless AC wipes out the two tier pay scale? I doubt it. To be clear I doubt AC will be willing to get rid of the two pay scales.

So my guess is status quo for now with Rouge 767 reductions down the road as it morphs into Rouge/Transat.

It will certainly take care of AC’s current and projected pilot shortfall though. Two birds with one stone. This is why the bottom half of the AC pilots are so concerned. What they thought was to be hiring below them may turn into integration above them.
I don’t believe they can just sub 330s for the 767s at rouge just yet. They can only do that if the 67s or 330s at mainline are replaced by “new” as defined, aircraft at mainline on a 1 for 1 basis. And only after all 62 787/777s are at mainline.

Maybe depending on age of transats fleet they can stick some at mainline and swap others in at rouge. But Transat only has 20 now as it is, so you are still stuck with a few 767s.
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by Fanblade »

The 62 787/777 happens when the last 787 arrives. When is that? Or has it already happened
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Re: Rouge upgrades seats and service

Post by BTD »

Based on the annual/quarterly report we get the last 2 this year. I think only 1 left now.
But now that we have all 62 they can only swap to 330s at rouge on a 1 for 1 replacement with “newer” (less than 10000 hrs) widebody replacements at mainline for the mainline 767 and or 330s.

Unless we get the 13 options and go to 50 787s. There are a few different provisions.
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