Retirement age.

[laserstrike]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

I don't expect anyone to help me, and where I am in my career is a result of the decisions that I've made. But when Boomers refuse to retire and then turn around and complain about how their kids aren't working hard enough to make as much money as they did at the same age, it pisses me off. Boomers are upset that their kids live at home well into their twenties and can't afford mortgages in their thirties, and I constantly hear remarks about how men aren't men anymore because their wives have to work; both spouses have to work because wages have stagnated for younger workers and housing is completely unaffordable. Boomers have caused a huge problem for Gen Xs, Millenials, and Gen Zs, and then bitch and complain about how everyone younger than themselves is lazy and incompetent.

The problem is they can't hear you complain about them over the noise from their boat, motorcycle, Corvette etc. Also they are probably in the man cave downstairs in their 4000sq foot house they live in with just the wife and can't hear you cause you're too far away in your one bedroom apartment in the suburbs that your share with your wife and two screaming kids.

[rookiepilot]

[ Boomers have caused a huge problem for Gen Xs, Millenials, and Gen Zs, and then bitch and complain about how everyone younger than themselves is lazy and incompetent.

There is some justification for this, I'll give one example of Boomer entitlement (And I just missed being born as one by my age)

Gov't here several years ago started tightening mortgage regulations for a number of sensible reasons, to calm the housing market down.
Followed then by restrictions on foreign ownership and empty houses.

They didn't want a US style bubble;
They wanted to keep a lid on Canadian's debt loads,
They wanted to ensure -- or try -- that the younger generation could afford a house one day,
Lastly, they (CMHC) -- didn't want taxpayers to be on the hook for mortgage losses. All very sensible.

And now that it's biting a little in Toronto and especially Vancouver, I can hear the screaming from here. Boomers screaming "You're wrecking my retirement" -- with their million dollar equity in their homes.

Guess what Boomers? You don't have the right to a perpetually rising housing market, an investment without any risk, so that you can dump your 2 million property on some sap and retire to the island. It's not all about you.

The "most self absorbed generation in history" I think is very well named.

[Squaretail]

I get where laser strike is coming from, though his blame is misplaced. It’s not uncommon to find what seem like decent jobs, but then to realize there is no growth, and no way to progress. He won’t be the first to have the myth debunked that all you need to do to get ahead is keep your head down, work hard and the capitalist system will reward you if you out compete your fellows. The problem isn’t with old guys holding their jobs, it’s with working for companies that have no growth and are often poorly managed. As a worker you just have to move on and be more careful to where you hitch your wagon. Look out for number one. Gone are the days of my father and grandfather who could expect to work the same job their entire working lives.

Personally, I get more irritated with the short sighted management I often see, who don’t get that they can’t keep guys who bust their butt at the bottom of the totem pole on starting wage for their entire tenure, then bitch when the “millennials” leave. Good help is hard to find, so give the fuckers a raise once in a while. Throw the poor bastards a bone. Training new people costs always more than retaining people.

[rookiepilot]

I get where laser strike is coming from, though his blame is misplaced. It’s not uncommon to find what seem like decent jobs, but then to realize there is no growth, and no way to progress. He won’t be the first to have the myth debunked that all you need to do to get ahead is keep your head down, work hard and the capitalist system will reward you if you out compete your fellows. The problem isn’t with old guys holding their jobs, it’s with working for companies that have no growth and are often poorly managed. As a worker you just have to move on and be more careful to where you hitch your wagon. Look out for number one. Gone are the days of my father and grandfather who could expect to work the same job their entire working lives.

Personally, I get more irritated with the short sighted management I often see, who don’t get that they can’t keep guys who bust their butt at the bottom of the totem pole on starting wage for their entire tenure, then bitch when the “millennials” leave. Good help is hard to find, so give the fuckers a raise once in a while. Throw the poor bastards a bone. Training new people costs always more than retaining people.

Why don't you start a company Squaretail?

Show us how easy it is. When I couldn't get paid enough as an employee, that's exactly what I did.

I don't meet many others willing to do the same. Cause it's really hard.

[Fanblade]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

Why does it reek of millennial self entitlement? As a boomer myself what I read are well thought out arguments about how generational changes are impacting them. Discarding their issues as entitled? Diadem’s reference of a study was nothing but fact driven.

Besides IF the generation has entitlement issues? I personally refuse labels like that. But IF true, maybe we should take a look at how they were raised. A couple of bad apples is one thing, but if you really believe it is a whole generation, it is the parents that need a spotlight on them.

I have 3 millennial children. Not one of them wth an entitlement attitude or lazy. Of course if I saw it I would beat it out of them. I work with many millennials. No issues. I think what we have is a larger number of rich spoiled kids than usual, because of the Boomer parents wealth. And you know what. Those spoiled rich kids will get hammered in the real world. What their parents didn’t teach them lovingly, society will teach without empathy.

Let’s face it we are a huge generation. A lot like an economic bull in a china shop. Anything we want we put so much demand and stress on that prices skyrocket. (Housing, old age homes) When we are done? They collapse. Notices how many golf courses are no longer profitable and closing as Boomers become too arthritic to play. Not yours or my individual fault. But as a generation it is a fact.

Housing is next. It will take time but it will happen. My house is only worth what someone coming up behind me can afford to pay. There is no way around this fact. If too many of the younger generation have their lifetime salary decreased by a late start in their career. They won’t be able to pay today’s prices. Again this isn’t tomorrow and will take a while to unwind. However I suggest we Boomers, particularly trailing ones like me, plan accordingly. Don’t count on your house value for retirement unless you have already cashed out.

Diadem,

Not everyone in my generation is financially irresponsible. Just like every other generation some have used credit wisely, others haven’t. It’s true my generation saw a large increase in accessibility to credit that had previously not existed. Some were not prepared to manage it wisely and dug themselves some pretty deep holes. But I also think that situation is increasing with every successive generation. My grandfather for example never used credit for anything but a house, and even that was limited to 3X his yearly income. Not a penny more. To be clear I frown very hard on irresponsible financial planning and I don’t think the next generation should be saddled with someone else’s failure to plan. But as we know it is happening simply because, once again Boomers are a financial bull in a china shop. Those of us that were irresponsible ( really only a fraction) are too large a group to put on government assistance so retirement needed to be abolished. But don’t paint us all with the same brush. And again I don’t think this is something that is just my generation. It’s an inter generational trend rolling in the wrong direction.

[Old fella]

Despite it all from the positive lot and the doomsayer crowd, one has to admit over the past few years were the best for those wanting to join the airline pilot fraternity. Truth be told, all sectors of aviation hiring has been positive. For those who were around and can remember, try getting a flying job in the ‘70s and early- mid ‘80s, airline jobs were scarce, ditto corporate even those so called “ bush” stuff was suppressed. Those days were not positive, 1982 has double digit interest rates on mortgages, consumer loans, some credit cards had rates as high as 30%. It was an effing shit show.

[Squaretail]

Why don't you start a company Squaretail?

Show us how easy it is. When I couldn't get paid enough as an employee, that's exactly what I did.

Good for you, you took my advice and looked out for number one. I don’t need to start a company, I know how to get what I want as an employee.

I’m just saying I see guys like laser strike here all the time. I get it, I don’t always agree with their assessment. Can we agree that not all businesses are run well? You don’t have to be a genius or some business guru to figure that out. After all, I can think of at least a dozen businesses that I used to work for that aren’t around anymore. It’s a simple point I’m making. If you aren’t progressing at your job, you need to move on. The market may dictate of course whether you actually get what you feel you demand. I hate to say it, but any job where you have to wait for someone to quit, get fired or die to move up the ladder or even get a raise, isn’t one you’re going to be happy at if you’re looking for advancement, and particularly not if your only non advancing spot is a starting one.

Now that’s not even to say that a business with limited growth, is a bad one. But it is doomed to a cycle, where you can’t keep new guys because there is no growth potential for them. Some will be like laser, and mis attribute that to old guys, and there will be management who blame those new guys moving on to “lazy [insert youngest generation term here]”.

I will say in my own personal experience, I have run into a lot of management who have begrudged you moving on. Even when as an employee I have tried to make it as easy as I can for them (lots of notice, training replacements, letting them make counter offers). I took from that not to do it when the roles are reversed, and I have spent time on the other side, hiring and firing. I don’t think in the big scheme of things, the world will change. As someone who draws the short straw frequently in training new people, I’m keenly aware of the costs of training, and more so the costs of not training, to which I have found (especially in the aviation world) the latter will always outweigh the former. Sometimes to a catastrophic level.

[yycflyguy]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

Why does it reek of millennial self entitlement? As a boomer myself what I read are well thought out arguments about how generational changes are impacting them. Discarding their issues as entitled? Diadem’s reference of a study was nothing but fact driven.

Besides IF the generation has entitlement issues? I personally refuse labels like that. But IF true, maybe we should take a look at how they were raised. A couple of bad apples is one thing, but if you really believe it is a whole generation, it is the parents that need a spotlight on them.

I have 3 millennial children. Not one of them wth an entitlement attitude or lazy. Of course if I saw it I would beat it out of them. I work with many millennials. No issues. I think what we have is a larger number of rich spoiled kids than usual, because of the Boomer parents wealth. And you know what. Those spoiled rich kids will get hammered in the real world. What their parents didn’t teach them lovingly, society will teach without empathy.

Let’s face it we are a huge generation. A lot like an economic bull in a china shop. Anything we want we put so much demand and stress on that prices skyrocket. (Housing, old age homes) When we are done? They collapse. Notices how many golf courses are no longer profitable and closing as Boomers become too arthritic to play. Not yours or my individual fault. But as a generation it is a fact.

Housing is next. It will take time but it will happen. My house is only worth what someone coming up behind me can afford to pay. There is no way around this fact. If too many of the younger generation have their lifetime salary decreased by a late start in their career. They won’t be able to pay today’s prices. Again this isn’t tomorrow and will take a while to unwind. However I suggest we Boomers, particularly trailing ones like me, plan accordingly. Don’t count on your house value for retirement unless you have already cashed out.

Diadem,

Not everyone in my generation is financially irresponsible. Just like every other generation some have used credit wisely, others haven’t. It’s true my generation saw a large increase in accessibility to credit that had previously not existed. Some were not prepared to manage it wisely and dug themselves some pretty deep holes. But I also think that situation is increasing with every successive generation. My grandfather for example never used credit for anything but a house, and even that was limited to 3X his yearly income. Not a penny more. To be clear I frown very hard on irresponsible financial planning and I don’t think the next generation should be saddled with someone else’s failure to plan. But as we know it is happening simply because, once again Boomers are a financial bull in a china shop. Those of us that were irresponsible ( really only a fraction) are too large a group to put on government assistance so retirement needed to be abolished. But don’t paint us all with the same brush. And again I don’t think this is something that is just my generation. It’s an inter generational trend rolling in the wrong direction.

Really good post, Fanblade. I added emphasis to my favourite part.

[C.W.E.]

I see a lot of criticism of the boomer generation, I am from the silent generation which was before the boomers.

Our parents grew up during the great depression and we missed being pampered in the boomer generation.

[rookiepilot]

Can we agree that not all businesses are run well? You don’t have to be a genius or some business guru to figure that out. After all, I can think of at least a dozen businesses that I used to work for that aren’t around anymore. It’s a simple point I’m making. If you aren’t progressing at your job, you need to move on. The market may dictate of course whether you actually get what you feel you demand. I hate to say it, but any job where you have to wait for someone to quit, get fired or die to move up the ladder or even get a raise, isn’t one you’re going to be happy at if you’re looking for advancement, and particularly not if your only non advancing spot is a starting one.

Completely agree with all of this. In one sense everyone is a CEO of their own future.

[confusedalot]

Obviously I have zero clue of reality but here goes........

From real people I know,

Maritime lawyer quit at 70, not because he hated his job, but only because the firm was not so much fun anymore. He now set himself up with his own firm, and is getting contracts galore. Calls his own shots, likes what he does.

Small businessman wrapped it up at 85. He didn't need the money, he liked running a business.

US based guy will be ejected at 65 from a major. Has a corporate job all lined up. Imagine that.

Soooo.......What is this stuff about sitting in a couch eating chips as the end all and be all as a destination?

If you have a few million, I suppose you can spend your life on a cruise ship, suspect that very few have those kind of dollars.

Hey, I am learning to drop skydivers just out of sheer boredom. Oddly enough, hardest flying I have ever done. Tolerance for error is zero.

What is all of this stuff about

[shimmydampner]

Why does it reek of millennial self entitlement? As a boomer myself what I read are well thought out arguments about how generational changes are impacting them.

Well that's exactly it, isn't it? They're blaming everyone and everything else for their perceived lack of success instead of looking in the mirror. That's down the checklist, first ballot, hall of fame entitlement. It's not a 65 year old airline captain's fault that an up and coming FO isn't going to go 777 captain exactly when they believe they are due. You make your own luck in this life. There has not been this much opportunity in aviation in recent decades. There is success by any measure to be had. It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice and/or work for and/or wait for. If wide body captain at AC is what constitutes success for you, guess what? You may have to wait for it. It may not happen on your personal schedule. To expect otherwise or to be unwilling to sacrifice, work or wait for what you want is the definition of entitlement. If that's what you want, wait for it. If it's the money, there are other ways to get it so you may have to switch gears and work for it. I'm so tired of pilots expecting that the universe owes them their dream job, while paying their dream compensation, offering their dream schedule in exactly the location they want to live. Life doesn't work that way. Grow up. What's most important to you? It's out there. Stop bitching and go get it.

[laserstrike]

Ok so explain how that applies to someone who's at Air Canada and really just sitting pretty waiting for people to retire? In a company where progression is strictly based on seniority?

How can I sacrifice more to get ahead? Please tell me so I can get right on that.

[Diadem]

Well that's exactly it, isn't it? They're blaming everyone and everything else for their perceived lack of success instead of looking in the mirror. That's down the checklist, first ballot, hall of fame entitlement. It's not a 65 year old airline captain's fault that an up and coming FO isn't going to go 777 captain exactly when they believe they are due. You make your own luck in this life. There has not been this much opportunity in aviation in recent decades. There is success by any measure to be had. It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice and/or work for and/or wait for. If wide body captain at AC is what constitutes success for you, guess what? You may have to wait for it. It may not happen on your personal schedule. To expect otherwise or to be unwilling to sacrifice, work or wait for what you want is the definition of entitlement. If that's what you want, wait for it. If it's the money, there are other ways to get it so you may have to switch gears and work for it. I'm so tired of pilots expecting that the universe owes them their dream job, while paying their dream compensation, offering their dream schedule in exactly the location they want to live. Life doesn't work that way. Grow up. What's most important to you? It's out there. Stop bitching and go get it.

The company where I started my career hired a ton of retired airline pilots to be 703 captains because they were bored and wanted to supplement their incomes. FOs weren't able to upgrade even when they met the hour requirements because there weren't any positions open. Obviously the company preferred to put 20000-hour people in the left seat, but that meant that FOs were left with the option of being stuck in the right seat, with correlating pay, or leaving for captain jobs elsewhere. Those former airline captains complained both about those who stuck around, because apparently they were too lazy to do anything about their situation, and about those who quit, because they weren't loyal. The problem isn't that there aren't opportunities to be seized, the problem is that opportunities are fewer than they were for previous generations because of those generations, and that those generations then have the audacity to complain about everything we do. I wouldn't care so much that old pilots aren't retiring, except that they simultaneously complain about the failings of everyone younger than them.

[laserstrike]

Well that's exactly it, isn't it? They're blaming everyone and everything else for their perceived lack of success instead of looking in the mirror. That's down the checklist, first ballot, hall of fame entitlement. It's not a 65 year old airline captain's fault that an up and coming FO isn't going to go 777 captain exactly when they believe they are due. You make your own luck in this life. There has not been this much opportunity in aviation in recent decades. There is success by any measure to be had. It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice and/or work for and/or wait for. If wide body captain at AC is what constitutes success for you, guess what? You may have to wait for it. It may not happen on your personal schedule. To expect otherwise or to be unwilling to sacrifice, work or wait for what you want is the definition of entitlement. If that's what you want, wait for it. If it's the money, there are other ways to get it so you may have to switch gears and work for it. I'm so tired of pilots expecting that the universe owes them their dream job, while paying their dream compensation, offering their dream schedule in exactly the location they want to live. Life doesn't work that way. Grow up. What's most important to you? It's out there. Stop bitching and go get it.

The company where I started my career hired a ton of retired airline pilots to be 703 captains because they were bored and wanted to supplement their incomes. FOs weren't able to upgrade even when they met the hour requirements because there weren't any positions open. Obviously the company preferred to put 20000-hour people in the left seat, but that meant that FOs were left with the option of being stuck in the right seat, with correlating pay, or leaving for captain jobs elsewhere. Those former airline captains complained both about those who stuck around, because apparently they were too lazy to do anything about their situation, and about those who quit, because they weren't loyal. The problem isn't that there aren't opportunities to be seized, the problem is that opportunities are fewer than they were for previous generations because of those generations, and that those generations then have the audacity to complain about everything we do. I wouldn't care so much that old pilots aren't retiring, except that they simultaneously complain about the failings of everyone younger than them.

I saw this a lot in 703/704. A few Captains came and went who were retired AC and Air North pilots. It pissed off a lot of the younger folks who were waiting for an upgrade. So a lot of them left to Jazz and Encore, and then had to deal with the shit talking people love to give out too those who leave 703 without any command time to go to the regionals. Well @#$!, maybe if Joe Pilot who's had a stellar career didn't come scooting in to a left seat because he was "bored."

[TailwheelPilot]

I wouldn't care so much that old pilots aren't retiring, except that they simultaneously complain about the failings of everyone younger than them.

Ummm...doesn't every generation bitch and moan about older generations when they are young and the younger generations when they are old?

Absolutely no different from what you are doing, just the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Fanblade]

Why does it reek of millennial self entitlement? As a boomer myself what I read are well thought out arguments about how generational changes are impacting them.

Well that's exactly it, isn't it? They're blaming everyone and everything else for their perceived lack of success instead of looking in the mirror. That's down the checklist, first ballot, hall of fame entitlement. It's not a 65 year old airline captain's fault that an up and coming FO isn't going to go 777 captain exactly when they believe they are due. You make your own luck in this life. There has not been this much opportunity in aviation in recent decades. There is success by any measure to be had. It all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice and/or work for and/or wait for. If wide body captain at AC is what constitutes success for you, guess what? You may have to wait for it. It may not happen on your personal schedule. To expect otherwise or to be unwilling to sacrifice, work or wait for what you want is the definition of entitlement. If that's what you want, wait for it. If it's the money, there are other ways to get it so you may have to switch gears and work for it. I'm so tired of pilots expecting that the universe owes them their dream job, while paying their dream compensation, offering their dream schedule in exactly the location they want to live. Life doesn't work that way. Grow up. What's most important to you? It's out there. Stop bitching and go get it.

Shimmydampner

Did you even read this posted on the previous page?

https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/06/ar ... bs/372652/

The grievance the generation has is factual. We are not moving out of our jobs like previous generations. Forget the why for a moment. Facts are facts. We aren’t moving out of our jobs and turning them over to the next generation as was done in the past. That must have downline consequences for our youth. There is no way around it.

On the flip side life isn’t fair. So get on with it. That’s true too. Kinda harsh coming from the generation that caused the issue though. Who sounds entitled in this scenario?

[schnitzel2k3]

It's a vicious cycle unfortunately as Baby boomers, in many cases, are still supporting their younger millenial children (usually under 30 at this point) who are stuck in lower wage roles, returning to school to increase qualifications to differentiate their skillset on paper, or trying to buy their way into the housing market (ouch). This support causes financial strain on their (baby boomers) retirement plans, and so they keep on trucking (or trying to) well into their retirement years. The financial crisis of 2008, particularly in the US, really spoiled some 401ks, but looking at market trends they should have made back their money and then some had they stayed the course. So market or not, that money should be there, it's just how it's being spent is the problem.

I certainly don't look forward to an eventual retirement. I look forward to paying off my mortgage, I look forward to seeing my two kids grow up and helping them with whatever they need to succeed, and I look forward to all the fun along the way, but retirement is not something I'm excited about. So, I don't blame anyone for holding onto their seat, particularly if they are still enjoying it and helping to pass that wisdom onto that next generation.

S.

[Fanblade]

It's a vicious cycle unfortunately as Baby boomers, in many cases, are still supporting their younger millenial children (usually under 30 at this point) who are stuck in lower wage roles, returning to school to increase qualifications to differentiate their skillset on paper, or trying to buy their way into the housing market (ouch). This support causes financial strain on their (baby boomers) retirement plans, and so they keep on trucking (or trying to) well into their retirement years.

So this vicious cycle that starts with boomer children failing to launch. Do you think Boomers not leaving there jobs might be a contributing factor?

This study says yes.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/06/ar ... bs/372652/

[confusedalot]

Gonna cal bs on this.......

Millenials are sitting in (eventually) super high paying seats. It started about 4-5 years ago.

They will be flying in the stratosphere in a matter of 1-2 years.

So.....this stuff about a handful of bored old guys taking away a tiny handful of jobs from the poor young is not supported by the stats.

The big guys are almost excusively hiring millenials.