New TC Cannabis rules

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Blowin' In The Wind
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New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Blowin' In The Wind » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:58 am

Interesting change from the previous “Thou shall never consume Cannabis”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/transp ... -1.5164518
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praveen4143
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by praveen4143 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:30 am

The article seems very dubiously written... Lol
They don't name the Transport Canada official nor have any links to the announcement on the TC website and I could not find anything directly on the TC website either...
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:37 am

Even if these were to be the new rules, I doubt anyone would have a schedule or be able to maintain a job within Canada, smoke weed and abide by those rules.

S.
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Mapleflt
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Mapleflt » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:32 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:37 am
Even if these were to be the new rules, I doubt anyone would have a schedule or be able to maintain a job within Canada, smoke weed and abide by those rules.

S.

The problem with this is WHAT..............!!!!!!
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mato
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by mato » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:34 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:37 am
Even if these were to be the new rules, I doubt anyone would have a schedule or be able to maintain a job within Canada, smoke weed and abide by those rules.

S.
Except for those Max Drivers. They have a pretty decent schedule :lol:
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jakeandelwood
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by jakeandelwood » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:39 am

So the only way it would work is if you had 4 weeks of holidays a year and you took them all at once, then you could smoke weed the 1st day of your holidays and that's it. If that rule is even true it's like it was designed not to work.
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digits_
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by digits_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:40 am

I think it's good if they put an actual timeframe on it. At least now people know it's 28 days if they "accidentally" use Cannabis.

Before it was a bit unclear: if you smoked on your time off because you couldn't resist temptation, how long would you be flying illegally (if you decided to do so).

Makes it easier for companies to deal with it as well: you used cannabis, 28 days off without pay and don't do it again.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:50 am

Some companies have 2 months on/2 months off schedules. Voyageur I think does, for example. You could smoke weed your entire first month off. Also, float pilots, water bomber pilots, etc could smoke all winter and just stop 28 days before coming back to work for the summer.
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lhalliday
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by lhalliday » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:06 am

Link to the CARs (404/424) or Canada Gazette, or it didn't happen.

...laura
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:47 am

Mapleflt wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:32 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:37 am
Even if these were to be the new rules, I doubt anyone would have a schedule or be able to maintain a job within Canada, smoke weed and abide by those rules.

S.

The problem with this is WHAT..............!!!!!!
I don't see any science behind those rules. My time to consume has long since passed but I know many who still do, both on a casual and regular basis, and it doesn't take 28 days to recover from casual use. Same as alcohol. Regular use, if it is affecting workplace performance should be treated like alcoholism.

I think there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding cannabis caused by years of fear mongering. Do I think you can show up high and perform normally? Not a chance, same as alcohol. Get out of my cockpit. But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover (I'm talking both cannabis and alcohol), I don't see any issues at all. The biggest factor nowadays, forget mood enhancing drugs, is guys and gals getting enough rest between shifts. Fatigue is probably the biggest risk factor in aviation as we tiptoe around it, but we're happy to slap unreasonable time frames on the use of a legal product.

S.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by PilotDAR » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm

But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover ................., I don't see any issues at all.
And it sounds like TC has defined "plenty of time to recover", so we're good!
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by daedalusx » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:44 pm


I think there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding cannabis caused by years of fear mongering. Do I think you can show up high and perform normally? Not a chance, same as alcohol. Get out of my cockpit. But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover (I'm talking both cannabis and alcohol), I don't see any issues at all. .

S.
Ok Mr Casual user. Let’s say you show up rested and smoked a bowl the night before a late start pairing and you feel that it’s been enough time and that you’re perfectly fit for duty.

It’s a bad day outside and the runway in YUL is slippery and then through no fault of your own, you blow a tire on the takeoff run and have to execute a high speed RTO. You perform to the best of your abilities but due to conditions (x-wind, shitty runway maintenance, etc) you veered off and the plane is in the snow bank. 1 500 000$ damage to wing, eng nacelle, etc
TC pulls your blood and it shows THC.

Are you ready and willing to deal with the consequences? Lawsuits, career ruined, getting financially stressed, seeing your name in the newspaper...Remember, as of now, ALPA and most unions will not fight for you in this case.
If so, then smoke away my friend.
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rookiepilot
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:16 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm
But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover ................., I don't see any issues at all.
And it sounds like TC has defined "plenty of time to recover", so we're good!
Instead of "bottle to throttle" -- the new acronym will be "toke to yoke" :mrgreen:
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:52 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:44 pm

I think there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding cannabis caused by years of fear mongering. Do I think you can show up high and perform normally? Not a chance, same as alcohol. Get out of my cockpit. But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover (I'm talking both cannabis and alcohol), I don't see any issues at all. .

S.
Ok Mr Casual user. Let’s say you show up rested and smoked a bowl the night before a late start pairing and you feel that it’s been enough time and that you’re perfectly fit for duty.

It’s a bad day outside and the runway in YUL is slippery and then through no fault of your own, you blow a tire on the takeoff run and have to execute a high speed RTO. You perform to the best of your abilities but due to conditions (x-wind, shitty runway maintenance, etc) you veered off and the plane is in the snow bank. 1 500 000$ damage to wing, eng nacelle, etc
TC pulls your blood and it shows THC.

Are you ready and willing to deal with the consequences? Lawsuits, career ruined, getting financially stressed, seeing your name in the newspaper...Remember, as of now, ALPA and most unions will not fight for you in this case.
If so, then smoke away my friend.
No, which is why I don't smoke weed in this current climate of fear regarding regulations and the risks to my license. But, playing devils advocate, I would argue that a normal investigation would need to be started, no different than if they had alcohol in their system. Questions regarding when they used, how much and proper blood sampling would need to be considered. On top of that, the nature of the accident, as you described may have been beyond the control of any pilot.

TC, before implementing any abstination regulations should be investigating this in the simulator utilizing a controlled environment so they can guage impairement and implement more scientific limitations on the use of cannabis. If at the end of an unbiased study the conclusion remains that a pilots ability is so impaired beyond initial use that it is unsafe to consume cannabis with 28 days of operating, then restrict it as so.

We have an 8 hour bottle to throttle limitation, I don't see why cannabis users can't be given a more limiting but reasonable reprieve for cannabis use.
PilotDAR wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm
But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover ................., I don't see any issues at all.
And it sounds like TC has defined "plenty of time to recover", so we're good!
That's part of the study that needs to be looked at. I don't have any studies infront of me regarding "plenty of time to recover" but I think it's important because I can guarantee you just like pilots abusing the 8 hour bottle to throttle rule (I'm not talking about pilots drinking inside 8 hours, I'm talking about the bbq benders or northern crew houses on a weather day), there are pilots who continue to use cannbis and need to be aware when it may be too close to call when it comes to operating. For instance the difference in impairement between a joint the night before, or an edible can be exponentially different and needs to be discussed openly.

Any volunteers?

Hehe.

S.
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Heliian
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Heliian » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:34 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:52 pm
8 hour bottle to throttle rule
It's 12 hours and you still have to be fit to fly.
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Roadrunnersmother
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:40 pm

Come on lightweights it's easy, just don't make it obvious you smoke weed. Working so far for me, no FO has seen any degraded performance in me.
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GoinVertical
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by GoinVertical » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:24 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:40 pm
Come on lightweights it's easy, just don't make it obvious you smoke weed. Working so far for me, no FO has seen any degraded performance in me.
Must just be the companies you're applying to that notice :lol:
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:29 pm

What about AMEs? Any limitations wrt their consumptions in the law?
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by SRV » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:30 pm

How will this be enforceable besides the honour system? It is legal and could go to the human rights commission for a verdict if random (very expensive) sampling is enacted by an operator.

Certainly not all operators will fork out the money for an internal process.

A bit knee jerk to pacify joe/Jane public. Not scientific at all.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Hot Wings » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:14 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:29 pm
What about AMEs? Any limitations wrt their consumptions in the law?
When I get out my snaggin’ pen, those AMEs gonna need the weed
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:17 pm

Heliian wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:34 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:52 pm
8 hour bottle to throttle rule
It's 12 hours and you still have to be fit to fly.
Well then... :drinkers: :smt037

S.
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Heliian
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Heliian » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:16 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:29 pm
What about AMEs? Any limitations wrt their consumptions in the law?
Nope, AMEs can stay up and party all night and then work 60 14hr shifts in a row. Smoke breaks will be replaced by toke breaks, productivity is up and complaints are down.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:02 am

Our AME'S said it's 30 days for them. Also don't expect random testing to just show up. Under Canadian law you have to agree to in when hired. The employer can't just enact it afterwards because you can just refuse as you took the job under different conditions (this all straight from HR on why it won't be implemented as it's too large a headache)
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Capt. Underpants » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:22 am

Case precedent in Canada allows drug and alcohol testing in the workplace under three conditions; during hiring it can be used to screen candidates; if there is suspicion that impairment has contributed to an event on the job; or if there is a chronic problem with consumption in that industry / workplace. Many O & G companies around Fort Mac have been doing random testing because there were so many problems.

TC has no interest in conducting a research project to determine how long someone can go between consumption and being sober. There's no secret in their selection of the 28 day time frame. It's all about how long evidence of consumption can show up in a blood test.

I'm confused that they have chosen to apply the new rule to cabin crew but not to AMEs or flight dispatchers. Cabin crew are not issued a CAD, but AMEs and dispatchers are. You can't issue a NOS to a flight attendant for non-compliance.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Capt. Underpants » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:51 am

lhalliday wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:06 am
Link to the CARs (404/424) or Canada Gazette, or it didn't happen.

...laura
It seems this isn't a new regulation, but rather an interpretation of the term "fit for duty".
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