What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

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mrwild
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What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by mrwild » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:36 pm

Hola Fellas,

This is a very basic question I guess everyone on the planet has and only a few know.

What happens to a pilot and his career in case of a minor accident which is not his fault a 100%. Let me give you guys a specific example.

So an amazing pilot with over 15k hours lands on an airport on a rainy day. His airplane slips and overshoots the runway causing the landing gear/ engine etc. damage. All the passengers and crew are safe.

My understanding is this will directly be counted as a fault of the pilot and his career will be done for, whereas if we look there are various factors in play here
Was the runway seweg working properly ?
Did the ATC give enough warning to pilot ?
Was the runway clean from previous tyre debri?
Were correct tyres fitted on the plane ? etc.

Thanks,
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by DirtyDashDriver » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:16 pm

Your example is too clearly a pilot error with what you've given. You don't mention what leads to the slip, and that is what would be the most important element.

I should expect the possibility of a runway overrun or slipping on a rainy day, so I should already be taking precautions to limit the possibility of such an event. If the runway grooving is not sufficiently dealing with the rain, the surface condition would be reported as some form of standing water. My professional licenses tell me that landing run will be increased, the possibility of hydroplaning is real, and directional control will be degraded. Regardless of when ATC notifies me, I'm never committed to a landing, so if I break out and see a runway that is not as advertised, I go around.

Tire debris and improperly fitted tires might be the only out for a pilot given your example, but the ultimate answer will come down to what another pilot would likely have done given those conditions. In other words, would another pilot of average ability have been able to avoid the overrun? If the answer is yes, then it's likely your fault. If the answer is no, then you're (mostly) in the clear.

As far as your career goes, it depends.

A lot of pilots have had very serious accidents with and without fatalities and were quickly back into the flight deck once their own injuries healed. Others have had minor incidents, but it was such a degree of negligence that it was determined no other pilot in their right mind would have made the same decisions and, therefore, a license was pulled.

Negligence is the kicker. If you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did everything within your power to assure safe flight operations, you should be OK. But if you forgot anything or breezed over a procedure, you'll be in trouble, the severity of which tied to the amount of negligence displayed.
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mrwild
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by mrwild » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:25 pm

DirtyDashDriver wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:16 pm
Your example is too clearly a pilot error with what you've given. You don't mention what leads to the slip, and that is what would be the most important element.

I should expect the possibility of a runway overrun or slipping on a rainy day, so I should already be taking precautions to limit the possibility of such an event. If the runway grooving is not sufficiently dealing with the rain, the surface condition would be reported as some form of standing water. My professional licenses tell me that landing run will be increased, the possibility of hydroplaning is real, and directional control will be degraded. Regardless of when ATC notifies me, I'm never committed to a landing, so if I break out and see a runway that is not as advertised, I go around.

Tire debris and improperly fitted tires might be the only out for a pilot given your example, but the ultimate answer will come down to what another pilot would likely have done given those conditions. In other words, would another pilot of average ability have been able to avoid the overrun? If the answer is yes, then it's likely your fault. If the answer is no, then you're (mostly) in the clear.

As far as your career goes, it depends.

A lot of pilots have had very serious accidents with and without fatalities and were quickly back into the flight deck once their own injuries healed. Others have had minor incidents, but it was such a degree of negligence that it was determined no other pilot in their right mind would have made the same decisions and, therefore, a license was pulled.

Negligence is the kicker. If you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did everything within your power to assure safe flight operations, you should be OK. But if you forgot anything or breezed over a procedure, you'll be in trouble, the severity of which tied to the amount of negligence displayed.
Thank You for the clear explanation. So negligence will definitely take one out !
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by DirtyDashDriver » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:30 pm

So negligence will definitely take one out !
Every. Single. Time, Yes.
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mrwild
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by mrwild » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:53 pm

Makes me wonder, is there any organization which works for the protection of pilots ? so for e.g. big f*ups from big corporations leading to accidents will most likely end up using pilots as a scapegoat.
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CL-Skadoo!
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:18 am

I believe you're looking for the word "union".
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7ECA
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by 7ECA » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:31 am

Not to worry, your company - like any respectable operation, will have a non-punitive SMS policy in place. So if you screw up, it's not a big deal - like the bosses son in law bending some tin, no problem...

You on the other hand, SOL. :lol:
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digits_
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by digits_ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:41 am

mrwild wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:53 pm
Makes me wonder, is there any organization which works for the protection of pilots ? so for e.g. big f*ups from big corporations leading to accidents will most likely end up using pilots as a scapegoat.
Maybe, but a thought that might put you at ease a bit more: in the end it is all about money. If you crash an A320, you will never make enough money to put a dent in that damage, even if you caused the damage.

You'd probably be in more trouble if you crash the boss's 206 due to your gross negligence. The insurance company or your company could easily go after you for that, because you would make enough money in your lifetime to pay back a 206.

There have been some other topics about this as well. Basically if you follow company procedures, the company is an extra level of protection against pax suing you.
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DHC-1 Jockey
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:10 am

When I was at Jazz, one or both of the crew (I can't remember) who took the DH8 off the end of the runway in YYB came in to our recurrent groundschool to discuss the scenario as a teaching point. They were both back flying the line relatively quickly I think.

And there was the crew who wrote off an RJ in YYZ due to a hard landing and I believe both of them were still flying with Jazz after that one.

I imagine the AC crews who had the hard landing in YHZ and the near miss in SFO are back flying as well.
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sunk
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by sunk » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:28 pm

I’ve hired pilot with one accidents before. You know they aren’t going to make the same mistake again. Also will become a safer pilot. Everyone makes a mistake. These pilots are now with WestJet, Air Canada, Transport Canada, etc.
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by Bede » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:11 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:41 am

Maybe, but a thought that might put you at ease a bit more: in the end it is all about money. If you crash an A320, you will never make enough money to put a dent in that damage, even if you caused the damage.

You'd probably be in more trouble if you crash the boss's 206 due to your gross negligence. The insurance company or your company could easily go after you for that, because you would make enough money in your lifetime to pay back a 206.
Employees are covered by the corporate insurance policy. Always except when acting outside of their employment. (Ie taking a plane without permission, not acting negligently). You will never have to pay back an airplane. Your company's nsurance company can not come after you. This is a basic principle of indemnity.
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by Bede » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:15 am

DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:10 am
And there was the crew who wrote off an RJ in YYZ due to a hard landing and I believe both of them were still flying with Jazz after that one.
Captain stayed at Jazz but forced onto Dash 8 because of this. Rumour is FO went to WJ.

Captain was a fantastic guy. He just made a dumb mistake and coupled with some RJ design features, the plane was written off.
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cfall
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by cfall » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:27 am

Most guys I know have kept flying though most moved companies and could explain that they learned from it. I know a guy that flew into a power line who kept his job. He clearly learned from the experience and wasn’t about to do it again. I know a high time captain who geared up on the runway and kept his job. So point is attitude.
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digits_
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by digits_ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:32 am

Bede wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:11 am
digits_ wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:41 am

Maybe, but a thought that might put you at ease a bit more: in the end it is all about money. If you crash an A320, you will never make enough money to put a dent in that damage, even if you caused the damage.

You'd probably be in more trouble if you crash the boss's 206 due to your gross negligence. The insurance company or your company could easily go after you for that, because you would make enough money in your lifetime to pay back a 206.
Employees are covered by the corporate insurance policy. Always except when acting outside of their employment. (Ie taking a plane without permission, not acting negligently). You will never have to pay back an airplane. Your company's nsurance company can not come after you. This is a basic principle of indemnity.
I know of a 703 operator who tried though. I don't think they succeeded in the end, but it still sucks to have to deal with that. It was the company itself that tried, not the insurance company. I think it might have been liability only insured, or they wanted to keep their premiums low. It was repairable damage only to a 206 sized airplane.

On the other hand I have never even heard rumours about something like that at airlines.
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by Bede » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:02 pm

That's a really dumb decision by the company. If I was the pilot I'd send the stuff off to the company's own insurance. Since employees are always covered (vicarious liability), the insurance company would likely have to provide the pilot representation and the company would be the one footing their own legal bill plus pay higher premiums.
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digits_
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:14 am

Good to know in case it ever happens! I had no idea you could do that.
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seven-oh-nooo
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by seven-oh-nooo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:06 am

mrwild wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:36 pm
What happens to a pilot and his career in case of a minor accident
If he plays it right: nothing. I know pilots who have killed passengers through their own arrogant negligence and they’re doing fine. I myself couldn’t do that without being crushed by my own conscience. I’m weak like that.
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:57 am

-Halifax would have cost me my job.

-Montego Bay would have cost me my job.

-San Francisco would have cost me my job.

-Sint Maarten would have cost me my job.

There's no one looking out for me except me - I can't afford to have anything happen on my flights.
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Re: What happens to a Pilot in Case of an accident

Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:55 am

digits_ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:32 am
Bede wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:11 am
digits_ wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:41 am

Maybe, but a thought that might put you at ease a bit more: in the end it is all about money. If you crash an A320, you will never make enough money to put a dent in that damage, even if you caused the damage.

You'd probably be in more trouble if you crash the boss's 206 due to your gross negligence. The insurance company or your company could easily go after you for that, because you would make enough money in your lifetime to pay back a 206.
Employees are covered by the corporate insurance policy. Always except when acting outside of their employment. (Ie taking a plane without permission, not acting negligently). You will never have to pay back an airplane. Your company's nsurance company can not come after you. This is a basic principle of indemnity.
I know of a 703 operator who tried though. I don't think they succeeded in the end, but it still sucks to have to deal with that. It was the company itself that tried, not the insurance company. I think it might have been liability only insured, or they wanted to keep their premiums low. It was repairable damage only to a 206 sized airplane.

On the other hand I have never even heard rumours about something like that at airlines.
I don't think a company can go after you if you break something that is company property unless it's deliberate vandalism. I'm pretty sure it's illegal, but then again the aviation industry......
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