Lawyer or no lawyer?

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marakii
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Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by marakii » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:16 am

Do you need an aviation lawyer to assist in purchasing a single engine airplane, title search?

Thanks
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Generally not for "cheap" planes. I would recommend looking at COPA"s guide to buying an aircraft in Canada.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by jakeandelwood » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:38 pm

I never did, I just looked on the transport Canada website to make sure he was the owner, and got an AME to give the plane a quick look over.
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JasonE
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by JasonE » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:32 pm

The problem with airplanes is you have to search in every province to be absolutely sure there is no lean against it. Generally search the one it is registered in and you should be OK. Maybe if it was recently moved from another province check there. I recall it cost me $20 to do online in Ontario.
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Bede
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by Bede » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:38 pm
I never did, I just looked on the transport Canada website to make sure he was the owner, and got an AME to give the plane a quick look over.
You're confusing "title" (ie ownership) with "registration". Common mistake. A leasee would show up on the TC website and could sell you the airplane. Then, you go to register the airplane and TC tells you that the seller wasn't the title holder (ie. the "owner" on the last bill of sale). It's a common misunderstanding.

I recommend your AME not do a "quick look over", but a thorough inspection (200 hr on Cessna series) plus all AD's. This will zero time everything and guarantee that there are no surprises later on.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:59 am

Bede wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:38 pm
I never did, I just looked on the transport Canada website to make sure he was the owner, and got an AME to give the plane a quick look over.
You're confusing "title" (ie ownership) with "registration". Common mistake. A leasee would show up on the TC website and could sell you the airplane. Then, you go to register the airplane and TC tells you that the seller wasn't the title holder (ie. the "owner" on the last bill of sale). It's a common misunderstanding.

I recommend your AME not do a "quick look over", but a thorough inspection (200 hr on Cessna series) plus all AD's. This will zero time everything and guarantee that there are no surprises later on.
Yes you are right about the title vs registration, I did take a bit of a chance with getting it looked over as the plane was outside at a fairly remote airport in about 2 feet of snow at the time of sale, the AME really couldn't be thorough with the weather and time. I should have mentioned that. I did luck out and it turned out to be good.
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photofly
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by photofly » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:24 am

Bede wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm
You're confusing "title" (ie ownership) with "registration". Common mistake. A leasee would show up on the TC website and could sell you the airplane. Then, you go to register the airplane and TC tells you that the seller wasn't the title holder (ie. the "owner" on the last bill of sale). It's a common misunderstanding.
TC won't tell you the seller wasn't the title holder. TC can't tell you anything about the title holder because they don't keep a record of who is the title holder. Nobody does.

An airplane is just like almost every other good, like say an expensive watch or piece of jewellery. It's up to you to be convinced the person you're handing the money to has the right to sell it to you. The registration is a good starting point, but that's all.
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Bede
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by Bede » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:07 am

I disagree. You'll know right away when TC refuses to register the airplane.

It happened to me once. I bought an airplane from a guy who "repo'd" it from a flying school. I needed to send in both bills of sale: 1- bill of sale from flying school to insurance company. 2- bill of sale from insurance company to me.

TC screwed up and missed the first bill of sale and didn't want to register it to me. I pointed out the chain of title and the plane was registered.
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photofly
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by photofly » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:10 am

You're correct in that TC does due diligence. But if they accept your paperwork and agree to register the airplane, in error, that still doesn't speak to its ownership.

Nor does TC's latest record of a sale accurately represent the owner: just as in your example, they didn't know the insurance company was the owner, and if the flight school had (fraudulently) sold the aircraft directly to you, TC would have registered it to you. Despite you not holding good title.

TC doesn't have a record of liens or charges either.

There's a web page somewhere where Transport Canada explicitly disavows any role in resolving ownership disputes, pointing out that they don't have any say in who owns an airplane, only who is registered to operate it.
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Bede
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Re: Lawyer or no lawyer?

Post by Bede » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:20 pm

Yes, you are correct.
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