Speed limits and STARs

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fliter
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Speed limits and STARs

Post by fliter » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:05 am

I'm hoping to get people's thoughts on the interpretation of speed limits on STARs, and how they relate to the 250 under 10, and 200 under 3 within 10 rules.

As an example, consider the RNAV Z 08 at CYTZ via ILIXU 7 arrival. The arrival takes you to ROTRU which has a posted speed restriction of 220 knots. It's also within 10 nm of CYTZ, and any aircraft hoping to land at the island should be below 3,000' AGL by that point in the arrival... So, does the 220 knot limit at ROTRU replace the lower 200 knot limit, or does the 200 still apply, so 220 is only relevant for that extremely rare bird that happens to find itself above 3,000 AGL over ROTRU?

I can see that CAR 603.32 mentions that the 200 lnot speed limit applies unless an ATC clearance authorizes you otherwise. Can the STAR clearance be interpreted as an implicit authorization for the higher speed limit as per the STAR, or is thar logic flawed?
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MUSKEG
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by MUSKEG » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 am

If you are cleared for an arrival (Star) either in your Flight plan route or sequencing to an approach then yes that is an ATC clearance.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:09 am

I always do what the STAR says and ATC tells me. I dont really care about 200 knots unless I reach the end of a STAR or start getting close to an intercept.

It is also possible to have a profile that puts you well above 3000AAE at ROTRU, and 3000AAE is almost right on a three degree profile there. (tan3*6076 = 318.42 ft/NM * 4 NM to MIZEN = 1274 + 2000’ @ MIZEN = 3274 - 252 YTZ FE = 3022).

The top of the CZ of YTZ is 2500 rather than 3300 FWIW.
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wordstwice
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by wordstwice » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:44 pm

The charts do not tell you to do 220kts, they say MAX 220 knots. This does not tell you to fly 220, just that a max 220 in order to make the next turn.

I would caution you to consider this an automatic approval to break the 200 kt rule unless ATC specifically told you to go to the 220 maximum.
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Username:original
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Username:original » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:01 pm

Just follow the star speeds. They have been designed that way for a reason. They are there to help create proper spacing for ATC and if you slow to 200 and the guy behind you continues on the star speeds you will be creating a lot more work for the person handling arrivals. They will advise you to slow/speed up or cancel the restrictions if need be. If you’re turning base and getting close to that 10 miles and 3000 feet still going 250kts you need to slow. Once you start heading into airports like KEWR, ATC will lose there minds if you slow below 250 without them telling you.
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Mapleflt
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Mapleflt » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:21 pm

NavCanada (ATC) is a service provider not the regulator; that's Transport Canada, good luck with the CAR's violation.

In addition if your company has a FDM program in place you will also likely be "invited" in for biscuits & tea with the person(s) who are tasked with administering it.
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valleyboy
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by valleyboy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:49 pm

You are picking pepper out of fly shit. No one cares for the sake of 20kts. ATC certainly doesn't as long as separation is good and traffic is flowing. TC has bigger fish to fry.
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ant_321
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by ant_321 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm

You guys think too much. Set up the arrival and fly the vnav. In my previous life we would fly the barber pole (248) at 1000agl to 4 miles final. A new FO mentioned the 200kt rule once and I had forgotten it was a thing. 😂
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:10 am

wordstwice wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:44 pm
The charts do not tell you to do 220kts, they say MAX 220 knots. This does not tell you to fly 220, just that a max 220 in order to make the next turn.

I would caution you to consider this an automatic approval to break the 200 kt rule unless ATC specifically told you to go to the 220 maximum.
Just try flying 180kts when the STAR says max 220. You will get an earful from ATC on a busy day in YYZ
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fliter
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by fliter » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:48 am

Username:original wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:01 pm
Just follow the star speeds. They have been designed that way for a reason.
They're not mandatory speeds though. They're max speeds. Certainly in the example I gave, no one is doing 220 knots over ROTRU.
Once you start heading into airports like KEWR, ATC will lose there minds if you slow below 250 without them telling you.
I actually go into Newark a lot. They do lots of speed assignments but they're all legal. In MDW, however, our company had to argue with the ATC there because ATC was adamant on assigning us higher speeds than what the speed limits dictate, and it turns out they actually don't have the authority to do so.

I also feel I need to clarify I'm looking for a legal interpretation/argument, not for advice on what to do or how much to think (or avoid thinking) about this matter. I'm already aware of how different pilots and operators tend to behave with these limits IRL.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Daniel Cooper » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:08 am

No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
The CARS at least seem to allow ATC to overrule this one.
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:40 pm

Try flying anything less than 250 near New Jersey and you'll see how fast ZNY tells you to pick it back up, usually with scorn.

If they could have you go into those airports at barber pole they would.

Fly the posted limit, same as you drive, unless you can't due to external conditions (turbulence, icing etc.). Simple.
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by digits_ » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:44 pm

fliter wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:48 am
Username:original wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:01 pm
Just follow the star speeds. They have been designed that way for a reason.
They're not mandatory speeds though. They're max speeds. Certainly in the example I gave, no one is doing 220 knots over ROTRU.
Once you start heading into airports like KEWR, ATC will lose there minds if you slow below 250 without them telling you.
I actually go into Newark a lot. They do lots of speed assignments but they're all legal. In MDW, however, our company had to argue with the ATC there because ATC was adamant on assigning us higher speeds than what the speed limits dictate, and it turns out they actually don't have the authority to do so.

I also feel I need to clarify I'm looking for a legal interpretation/argument, not for advice on what to do or how much to think (or avoid thinking) about this matter. I'm already aware of how different pilots and operators tend to behave with these limits IRL.
If you are looking for a legal way to fly faster than the STAR limitations: ATC can always cancel your STAR and give you vectors and speeds to the STAR waypoints.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:38 am

fliter wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:48 am

I also feel I need to clarify I'm looking for a legal interpretation/argument, not for advice on what to do or how much to think (or avoid thinking) about this matter. I'm already aware of how different pilots and operators tend to behave with these limits IRL.
fliter, STARs are designed with the legal speed limits in place. IF there are grey areas like at ROTRU, you have been cleared by ATC on the STAR and abide by the STAR. In the case of ILUXU.7 the STAR does not exempt you from 200/3000, as they are not requiring a minimum, they have only published a maximum.

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall

(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or

(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome UNLESS authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate – special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.

To summarize, a STAR counts as an ATC clearance, therefore any STAR's asking crews to HOLD 200 or better below 3000 for flow purposes override the speed rules surrounding controlled airports as per CARS 602.32 (b).

Clear as mud?

S.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

Mapleflt
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:07 am

Double post deleted
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Last edited by Mapleflt on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:08 am

My take on this, the controller is turning a blind eye to the regulation but the one he hands you off to may not !!! I'd rather be explaining why I slowed down to an ATC unit then why I didn't to the Chief Pilot
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ant_321
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by ant_321 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:21 pm

Has anyone ever gotten in trouble or even questioned about the 200/3000 rule? It’s probably the most frequently broken rule in Canada and nobody seems to care as far as I can tell.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm

There are CADORs around for it, but it is usually quite excessive. 300kt RADAR groundspeed, 9 mile final at 2000agl.
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Mapleflt
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:28 pm

I suspect if it lead to another issue, maybe "loss of separation" you may be requested to explain your non-compliance !!
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Username:original
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Username:original » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:37 pm

fliter wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:48 am
Username:original wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:01 pm
Just follow the star speeds. They have been designed that way for a reason.
They're not mandatory speeds though. They're max speeds. Certainly in the example I gave, no one is doing 220 knots over ROTRU.
Once you start heading into airports like KEWR, ATC will lose there minds if you slow below 250 without them telling you.
I actually go into Newark a lot. They do lots of speed assignments but they're all legal. In MDW, however, our company had to argue with the ATC there because ATC was adamant on assigning us higher speeds than what the speed limits dictate, and it turns out they actually don't have the authority to do so.

In regards to MDW. FARs- Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots

Basically in the states you can do 250 to 4 miles and 2500 feet. I can see why your company would argue with ATC if they told you to go faster than 200 inside 4 mile final.

I also feel I need to clarify I'm looking for a legal interpretation/argument, not for advice on what to do or how much to think (or avoid thinking) about this matter. I'm already aware of how different pilots and operators tend to behave with these limits IRL.
I understand. Legally you are protected by the speeds provided on the STAR.
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Giny
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Giny » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:41 pm

One thing to note is that there are airports that are in Class B airspace in the U.S. (the prominent large airports like EWR and ORD are Class B airspace all the way to the ground including the control zone. MDW is a class C control zone though) At those airports with a Class B control zone there is no speed reduction to 200 kts necessary below 2500 ft. You can do 250kts all the way to the ground if you want to/can (and if ATC doesn't assign you a specific speed)! This is ONLY in Class B airspace in the U.S. though. When I was watching one of those KING schools teaching videos on U.S. airspace decades ago they helped us remember that Class B stands for "BIG"! haha!
Class C and D airports in the U.S. are 200 below 2500ft within 4 NM as previously noted. If you were asked to do 250 to the marker in Indianapolis (Class C control zone) I guess you could in theory as long as the marker was at 5NM and you slowed to 200kts by 4NM. :smt040
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Mapleflt
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by Mapleflt » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:04 am

I believe the speeds published on a STAR are maximums as they relate to turn anticipation for airspace containment, to avoid a loss of separation or terrain and obstacle avoidance. I do not think the designs take into consideration CARs regulatory requirements that's left to the PIC to abide by. As was pointed out earlier ATC can issue a clearance and that would be your "go to" if questioned but you'd want the tapes to back up your position I think.
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:34 am

The STAR is a clearance. ATC can override the 200kt order with a clearance. Simple enough.
The above opinion is that of the poster. If you don’t agree feel free to consult TC and get back to us.
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NotDirty!
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by NotDirty! » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:56 pm

504CF988-F9D5-4A99-B61D-3EE8701B4899.jpeg
504CF988-F9D5-4A99-B61D-3EE8701B4899.jpeg (706.11 KiB) Viewed 1017 times
Here is the procedure in question...
I measured... ROTRU is almost exactly 10 miles from YTZ. And you are getting further away as you proceed downwind.... you then have a hard 2000 and max 200 kts 4 miles away, so while you can do 220 for a few miles, you’ve gotta slow down pretty soon.
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Re: Speed limits and STARs

Post by GhostRider6 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:01 pm

I was flying a 705 machine with the CP.. we were assigned a speed reduction into a major center. I slowed to the assigned ATC speed ..as requested and the CP lost his cool and became quite animated lol.

I brought his attention to the Rule the OP was discussing .. which only further enraged the captain. Thing is, he was completely right +/- 10 KIAS on any all assigned ATC Speeds... apply it to STARS etc. If the speed is posted, you have the leeway .. might as well take it.

Take the star speed or ATC assigned and you can choose add 10 or subtract 10. Probably better to add gas than subtract..
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