What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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rwm1273
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What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:33 pm

I recently worked with a copilot that was by far the most incompetent person I have ever had the misfortune of working with. Utterly terrible at flying, had no idea what they were doing, and despite having over 2200hrs in flight time, I think most of it was spent being told to sit down and don't touch anything.

Everyone else who has known this person has similar stories to tell. They have all spread the word not to hire this person. But what else can be done? I truly feel that this person will make a smoking hole one day, and not know why.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by anofly » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:55 pm

well , interesting, saying co pilot means they likely have an ifr rating and saying 2 in the crew, they likely have to pass a PPC or equivalent. Surely someone is going to fail them the odd time along the way?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Rowdy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:25 pm

I have flown with two individuals in my career that should never, ever, under any circumstances be allowed command of a transport category aircraft.

While they were both incredibly pleasant, friendly and helpful outside of the aircraft. Inside, they were so far behind and so out of touch that even something as simple as programming the FMS with waypoints right off the flight plan needed to be monitored. Situational awareness was nil. How they managed to hold an ATPL and PPC always baffled me. One was eventually released after multiple training event failures. The other left for another operation and could not make it through the training program at said employer.

I would never condone slandering another human in the workplace or giving out a bad/negative reference. I have however seen the systems in place through the training departments work to remove these individuals from the operating environment or keeping them in a first officers position indefinitely.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 pm

I would never condone slandering another human in the workplace or giving out a bad/negative reference. I have however seen the systems in place through the training departments work to remove these individuals from the operating environment or keeping them in a first officers position indefinitely.
YOU are not part of the solution but part of the problem ! Your "old boys club" mentality will get innocent people killed !
I suppose you would say : "Well Bill is an OK co-pilot AND he has a wonderful personality and always helps out individuals" (( BUT you would NEVER allow your family to ride in the back of a plane where he is Single PIC! Hypocrite !))
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:02 pm

How they managed to hold an ATPL and PPC always baffled me.
The above says everything one needs to know about the quality of flight training and over site by the regulator in Canada.

It borders on criminal neglect and lack of understanding of their duty to public safety in my opinion.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 pm
I would never condone slandering another human in the workplace or giving out a bad/negative reference. I have however seen the systems in place through the training departments work to remove these individuals from the operating environment or keeping them in a first officers position indefinitely.
YOU are not part of the solution but part of the problem ! Your "old boys club" mentality will get innocent people killed !
I suppose you would say : "Well Bill is an OK co-pilot AND he has a wonderful personality and always helps out individuals" (( BUT you would NEVER allow your family to ride in the back of a plane where he is Single PIC! Hypocrite !))
It's not that easy. Are you willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours because you don't think they will improve at some point?
The example stated was an FO. What experience did he have before? Straight into an FO job from flight school? Who trained him? What is the problem precisely? Is the FO afraid to speak up? To be rushed? What if the problem is the interaction between the CPT and the FO? Are there any CPTs that are happy with the FO's performance?

Not every pilot needs to be a captain at some day either. Some people can function as an FO indefinitely, some will most likely be happy in that position as well.

However, if the pilot does not perform up to standards, then that should be reported. SMS might be an empty shell at some companies, but even there I hope someone will at least read it and look into it.

It surely is a tough decision.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:50 pm

To the OP, through all this, have you taken the time to address the issues to their abilities and to actively try and make them better?

I was not blessed with the skill of teaching or patience, because I learned naturally, but when I see my co-pilots failing, I conciously try and exercise patience, more importantly forgiveness, so that they have a safe place to learn. I may be direct and quick with my words, and sometimes that comes across as harsh, but I will always be the first one to pat them on the back when they've exceeded my expectations, and I will certainly be the first one to teach them a new skill when it's safe to do so.

My goal is to turn someone who you look down upon today, into someone who you look up to tomorrow. I don't always succeed, but at least I've put in the effort.

Please don't disparage or risk ruining someone's career if you aren't willing to put in the effort to fix what's wrong.

S.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Outlaw58 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:07 pm

Funny thing is throughout my career and still to this day, whenever I fly with someone I consider weak, I always wonder whether or not the problem is me :P

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:21 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm
It's not that easy. Are you willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours because you don't think they will improve at some point?
....
It surely is a tough decision.
No, it's not easy. Yes, it is a tough decision. Yes, I am willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours. If at 2000 hours, you do not have even a basic level of competence, you're not cut out to be a pilot. Sorry, not everyone can do it. And the people training and doing rides on these people have a duty to the public to maintain a standard. If that means "destroying" someone's career, so be it. Think of it as potentially saving their life and the lives of your coworkers and customers if that helps.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:04 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:21 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm
It's not that easy. Are you willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours because you don't think they will improve at some point?
....
It surely is a tough decision.
No, it's not easy. Yes, it is a tough decision. Yes, I am willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours. If at 2000 hours, you do not have even a basic level of competence, you're not cut out to be a pilot. Sorry, not everyone can do it. And the people training and doing rides on these people have a duty to the public to maintain a standard. If that means "destroying" someone's career, so be it. Think of it as potentially saving their life and the lives of your coworkers and customers if that helps.
I am with Shimmy on this one. If someone is just not showing the level of competency that is required, it is my duty as a captain and line check guy to bring this up to management and the training department. Full transparency is required here, and I feel I am obligated to pass along if the candidate is up to standard or not. I really don't care if a snowflake can't handle my view or not, yes I have a human side of me, but that has to be thrown out of the window for this matter. I ask myself, if I recommend this candidate to be cut loose after line indoc, will this pilot be a safe and helpful pilot to our new 1500-2000 captain who is barely qualified to fly the aircraft?

I will put all my effort into training someone and tell them what is required to do the job. I won't be your friend, and I also wont be your enemy. I approach it as a neutral position until the day you can prove to me that you are competent and able to do the job. Then we can joke around and have a buddy-buddy atmosphere. It may be the culture in Canada where everyone is kind and fruitful, but that doesnt belong in the cockpit. It may sound cut throat, but take it as you will. There is a huge liability about releasing someone to fly on the line after line indoc with paying passengers who have the right to a safe and competent crew.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:38 am

Discuss the situation with a chief pilot. I'm sure you aren't the only one who's raised issue. The chief pilot can put them back into line indoc, training, any number of options. They just need to know first.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:47 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:38 am
Discuss the situation with a chief pilot. I'm sure you aren't the only one who's raised issue. The chief pilot can put them back into line indoc, training, any number of options. They just need to know first.
I concur. I always try to be the guiding hand that I would want when I was at an early stage in my career, but when people aren't receptive to that, time to step it up to higher levels.

At least relieve yourself of this burden a bit by passing it to the people that need to know and have the ability to address it.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:11 am

Code: Select all

Discuss the situation with a chief pilot. I'm sure you aren't the only one who's raised issue. The chief pilot can put them back into line indoc, training, any number of options. They just need to know first
For a commercial operation this is the only procedure to follow. If this guy managed to go through company training then possibly the issue is bigger than just him. Follow the proper channels.

One thing needs to change and that's making PPC mandatory for 703. Under PCC training there is very little multi crew going on in your "HO's even though they call it that. I see so much "old boy " attitude develop in 21 year old captains, it's mind boggling.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:14 am

Did the original poster or any of his fellow Captains actually think of bringing this up with this FO? Maybe have a serious talk with him over a coffee and try to help him instead of secretly sewering him quietly behind his back. He probably thinks he is doing fine because everyone is to chicken shit to bring up his shortcomings
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by GoinVertical » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am

It seems that there are a few in the industry that have what it takes to scrape through training, and get through a ride, but just don't have the situational awareness to do the job.

In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

I've seen and flown with 2, maybe 3, of this same archetype. They have enough book-smarts and study skills to pass the PPC, are slightly below average during line-indoc but not drastically so, but their skill-level and situational awareness just doesn't seem to improve even after a year in the seat.

Making LOFT sessions somewhat challenging and pass/fail would probably help, but obviously when they are going to Sim with a captain they can end up being carried (or dragged) through the session and have a favourable outcome.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by tbaylx » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:02 am

In a 705 level operation these types will eventually get washed out by the training department, either through failed initial, line indoc or recurrent. Or if they are able to just scrape by then they will remain career FO's. If you have serious concerns then you should bring that up to your chief pilot and let the training department deal with it. It's not up to you as a line pilot to make those decisions.

In a 703 level they are able to continue for much longer because the training is rarely as formalized or robust.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by DanWEC » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:15 am

I turn to them after the flight and say, "CdnPilot77, how do you feel about boats?"
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by igorcanuck » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:47 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:38 am
Discuss the situation with a chief pilot. I'm sure you aren't the only one who's raised issue. The chief pilot can put them back into line indoc, training, any number of options. They just need to know first.
I had this situation in the past flying a 705 turbo-prop abroad. The FO was really below average and one day, final approach... approach flaps, landing gear down and when I called for landing flaps the guy retracted the flaps instead of setting the correct one. I overshooted and everything went well. The worst part was that after the mistake, he froze and didn't react for any input... even radio was handled by me.
Okay... long story short I called the chief pilot, explained the situation but... last time I saw the guy, he was flying as Captain. Scary
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Squaretail » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:04 am

It’s always been a tough question as to what to do when you run across guys who are grossly incompetent. The advice about gripes going up (usually to your chief pilot as the case may be) is usually the only thing a line guy can do. It’s my experience that once you start getting into the multiple thousands of hours of supposed experience that some of these pilots may have, there is likely little you could do in the small time you might spend in a seat beside them that is going to correct them. To think you could would be to assume that no one prior to you had tried in the past. I mean kudos if you attempt to, but prepare for disappointment.

Bad pilots always seem to find a way to advance. I will say that some of the scariest things I have witnessed in an airplane were at the hands of guys who had thousands of hours, in the top ten worst pilots I have had the misfortune of sharing a cockpit with, one had over 11,000 hours. That’s really hard to square up in my mind. That’s a lot of flight tests, check rides and recurrent training to get through without being caught.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by daedalusx » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:19 am

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:02 am
In a 705 level operation these types will eventually get washed out by the training department, either through failed initial, line indoc or recurrent. Or if they are able to just scrape by then they will remain career FO's. If you have serious concerns then you should bring that up to your chief pilot and let the training department deal with it. It's not up to you as a line pilot to make those decisions.

In a 703 level they are able to continue for much longer because the training is rarely as formalized or robust.
Seen plenty of incompetent people who couldn’t keep up during training yet pass a 705 ride, both left seat and right seat. A 705 ride is a rollercoaster and everyone knows the script, which is why a lot of those guys/gals have a horrible time in the capt assessment/loft but can pull it together for the PPC which is just a ballroom dance with no decision making required. At least on a 703 ride the ACP can fail a candidate on the ground portion when it’s clear the pilot has no clues on AC systems or IFR knowledge.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm

GoinVertical wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am


In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by GoinVertical » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm

digits_ wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm
GoinVertical wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am


In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
Do you expect a new FO on a 705 machine to be at the same skill level after one month as after one year?

I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately companies don't want to have new FO's stuck flying with training captains for 6 months, even if they only have 500 TT.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:07 pm

That’s a lot of flight tests, check rides and recurrent training to get through without being caught.
And here is the "old boys club" How many good cops will report a bad cop? The good cops know the bad cop makes them look bad !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rigpiggy » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 pm

trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:50 am

GoinVertical wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm
digits_ wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm
GoinVertical wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am


In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
Do you expect a new FO on a 705 machine to be at the same skill level after one month as after one year?

I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately companies don't want to have new FO's stuck flying with training captains for 6 months, even if they only have 500 TT.

No, but someone should have proven he/she is safe and effective in its FO duties and that minimum standard should not chamge. The expectations may change as they progress but that should only impact upgrades.
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