Low timer insurance

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Braun
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Low timer insurance

Post by Braun »

Hey,

I am possibly looking to purchase a share of a C172 or C177 (not RG). As a very low time PPL pilot (#60hrs) what should I expect to be paying for insurance? Can I even get insured? Obviously when the discussions get further i'll contact a broker but was just curious in the meantime!

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Yes I searched the forums before posting but couldn't find any relevant info.
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photofly
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by photofly »

Typically $500 for liability insurance + 2% of insured hull value.
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Braun
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by Braun »

Thanks! Typically, say there are 3 partners with varied experience, is the insurance rate per pilot or for the whole group on one aircraft?
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C-GKNT
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by C-GKNT »

That would be insurance rate for the whole group...up to 4 pilots (typically), beyond that its more of a club and different underwriting seems to apply.

Rate is often (but not always) based on the least experienced pilot. You used to be able to negotiate somewhat and were definitely in a better position to negotiate BEFORE the purchase than after. I my experience, the insurance market has been MUCH tighter the past 2-3 years and I have not been successful in getting any reductions on the quoted rates.

Personally, I consider first year insurance on a new-to-me aircraft to be part of the purchase price. I make sure to log as many hours as I can before the next renewal.

Glenn
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Braun
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by Braun »

C-GKNT wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:27 pm That would be insurance rate for the whole group...up to 4 pilots (typically), beyond that its more of a club and different underwriting seems to apply.

Rate is often (but not always) based on the least experienced pilot. You used to be able to negotiate somewhat and were definitely in a better position to negotiate BEFORE the purchase than after. I my experience, the insurance market has been MUCH tighter the past 2-3 years and I have not been successful in getting any reductions on the quoted rates.

Personally, I consider first year insurance on a new-to-me aircraft to be part of the purchase price. I make sure to log as many hours as I can before the next renewal.

Glenn
Thanks for the reply. We'd be buying into an already existing partnership so I guess i'll see with them what the deal is.
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nbinont
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by nbinont »

Braun wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:24 am Thanks for the reply. We'd be buying into an already existing partnership so I guess i'll see with them what the deal is.
Ask your future partners to check with their existing insurer what it would take to get you added to the aircraft policy. The insurer will want details on you (licences, experience, how recent the experience is). They should be able to indicate what checkout requirements they have for you (ranging from nothing to a checkout and number of hours in make+model) and quote a price to add you to the policy (this usually ranges from a nominal fee to a few $100s).

If you haven't already, spend some time reading about aircraft partnerships and what you want in one. (If you can't find a guide, COPA has a members only guide on purchasing an aircraft that includes a section on partnerships.) Discuss how the partnership evolves (purchase/sale), how you schedule/reserve the aircraft, insurance, and maintenance. Costs need to be properly addressed. You'll have fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annual inspection (assuming no surprises)) - you should have something like a monthly fee for that. You'll also have variable costs (fuel, oil changes, reserves). Note that it is critical to include a reserve fund for major aircraft components (engine, prop). Typically include this in the per-flight-hour variable costs. Also discuss how you handle unexpected expenses or major upgrades (avionics) - does everyone just cut a cheque? Or do you try to build a reserve fund for this? Both are valid approaches.

Good luck! Properly managed, partnerships can work out well. Badly managed ones end up with expensive surprises that cause resentment more often. Keep doing your homework and things will work out.
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Braun
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by Braun »

nbinont wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:32 pm
Braun wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:24 am Thanks for the reply. We'd be buying into an already existing partnership so I guess i'll see with them what the deal is.
Ask your future partners to check with their existing insurer what it would take to get you added to the aircraft policy. The insurer will want details on you (licences, experience, how recent the experience is). They should be able to indicate what checkout requirements they have for you (ranging from nothing to a checkout and number of hours in make+model) and quote a price to add you to the policy (this usually ranges from a nominal fee to a few $100s).

If you haven't already, spend some time reading about aircraft partnerships and what you want in one. (If you can't find a guide, COPA has a members only guide on purchasing an aircraft that includes a section on partnerships.) Discuss how the partnership evolves (purchase/sale), how you schedule/reserve the aircraft, insurance, and maintenance. Costs need to be properly addressed. You'll have fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annual inspection (assuming no surprises)) - you should have something like a monthly fee for that. You'll also have variable costs (fuel, oil changes, reserves). Note that it is critical to include a reserve fund for major aircraft components (engine, prop). Typically include this in the per-flight-hour variable costs. Also discuss how you handle unexpected expenses or major upgrades (avionics) - does everyone just cut a cheque? Or do you try to build a reserve fund for this? Both are valid approaches.

Good luck! Properly managed, partnerships can work out well. Badly managed ones end up with expensive surprises that cause resentment more often. Keep doing your homework and things will work out.
Thanks for the great advice. We’re meeting this week so I’ll make sure to ask the right questions!
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C-GKNT
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by C-GKNT »

I would add that I have had better luck adding a pilot a renewal time rather than in the middle of the policy year. You have more leverage at that time.

Several years ago, I was trying to add a friend to my Mooney policy. He had 0-time in type and 0-retract time and low total time (about 100 hours). They gave me a quote I thought was excessive. I asked for a lower rate or I told them I would go with another insurer. The end result was an extra $100/year to add the pilot.

To be fair, it was a different market then...I don't know if I would have gotten the same outcome now.

Glenn
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Bede
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by Bede »

For a simple aircraft, your insurance won't be much more. I have a 150 and paid ~$850/yr for a $20k hull value. I added a student pilot to the insurance and it cost $100 extra.
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Braun
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Re: Low timer insurance

Post by Braun »

If anyone is interested, the premium went up from 1300 to 1950$ by adding two below 150 hours pilots
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