Renting out a private aircraft?

[Alex335]

I’ve been considering renting out my twin for some extra spending cash towards avionics. I know most flight schools only rent their twins as dual, so there might be a market for people seeking PIC multi time.

Would I be able to rent the aircraft the same way people rent their singles out but ride along in the right seat (not providing instruction I’m not a CFI). More so just to ensure the gear goes down, the manifold pressure is properly managed, and monitor the flare. I know technically anyone with 50hrs multi time can provide multi instruction but I honestly have no idea how that works either, and have no interest in doing initial multi instruction.

Renting the aircraft for the same rate as a local flight school, and riding along in the right as a passenger would be good enough for me. Help a few fresh multi rated CPLs get their 50 hrs multi PIC or whatever they wanted, save them the cost of an instructor they likely don’t need after their 5-10hrs of Dual for the rating, and they help me get a new G500txi panel for my aircraft. Win Win

Anyone have any idea how this works? Any idea of where I can look for details from TC or elsewhere? I know how the insurance side of it works (same as renting private single out). Just not sure how it works if wanting to supervise the care of the aircraft while not acting as PIC, not providing dual instruction, and just being a passenger.

Edit: To clarify this would be more for my own piece of mind when dealing with unknown pilots who would likely be freshly licensed. Not to circumnavigate the insurance time on type minimums, and have the aircraft properly insured for the flights. No point offering an aircraft for rent which can lead to an early 100k overhauled due to a few mistakes.

[PilotDAR]

Well... One of the many factors to consider will be insurance. If it's privately registered, it's privately insured. If the insurer will even let you rent it, they would require each pilot to be named insured. From my experience, insurers don't welcome more than four insured pilots on one plane, unless there's a persuasive reason.

If you're right seat to another pilot from whom you're collecting money, but you got him/her insured as PIC, who's PIC? They are? If they are paying to rent the plane, they might like to take along the coperson of their choice. If you're right seat, you'd have to be silent, 'cause you're not PIC. If you start right seat "directing" you introduce confusion.

You might have and "arrangement" with another pilot you know and trust, but you'd best be very sure of the requirements, and assure that they are correctly insured, with full disclosure to the insurer. Insurance adjusters have a habit of checking the details following an accident.

[Alex335]

Well... One of the many factors to consider will be insurance. If it's privately registered, it's privately insured. If the insurer will even let you rent it, they would require each pilot to be named insured. From my experience, insurers don't welcome more than four insured pilots on one plane, unless there's a persuasive reason.

If you're right seat to another pilot from whom you're collecting money, but you got him/her insured as PIC, who's PIC? They are? If they are paying to rent the plane, they might like to take along the coperson of their choice. If you're right seat, you'd have to be silent, 'cause you're not PIC. If you start right seat "directing" you introduce confusion.

You might have and "arrangement" with another pilot you know and trust, but you'd best be very sure of the requirements, and assure that they are correctly insured, with full disclosure to the insurer. Insurance adjusters have a habit of checking the details following an accident.

That’s not really how renting a multi seems to work for low time pilots. Flight schools generally only provide dual on their multis. Would more be a means to offer PIC to people fed up with paying $500 and only receiving dual hours, who want 50hrs pic for a certain job or whatever. Otherwise wouldn’t really be a point since can easily get PIC time in a Cessna 172 at any flight school. Or if they need instructing can fly a Seminole or Seneca with a CFI and get all the dual hours they want.

Insurance wise on a multi I doubt they will be too receptive of putting a pilot with 0hrs on type in the left seat regardless the premium they charge. They would require dual instruction on it before considering insuring a new pilot on the aircraft.

[photofly]

wanting to supervise the care of the aircraft

That pretty much is the definition of PIC...

while not acting as PIC

... and so that's not going to work.

just to ensure the gear goes down, the manifold pressure is properly managed, and monitor the flare.

Again, if that's not being the Pilot in Command, what is it? If there was a regulatory violation, you haven't a hope in hell of persuading TC enforcement not to pursue you for it: it's your plane, you're the more experienced pilot, you're only there to "supervise" - you will get slapped with the fine, not the other person.

Basically If someone is PIC, that means they carry the can: they're responsible for everything that happens. You can't pretend to your insurance company that you're the responsible one on board, and that premiums should be based on you sitting up front, while simultaneously pretending to TC and the rest of the world that someone else was responsible and therefore they should log PIC time. If they put PIC time in their logbook under those circumstances, they would frankly be lying through their teeth.

And the reason employers (or whever) want PIC time is because it's evidence that someone was trustworthy enough and competent enough to carry the responsibility: they've proved didn't need someone else sitting up front to make sure the gear goes down.

I recall there's a TATC case about someone's eligibility for a float rating based on the aircraft owner (I believe) riding along during their "solo" flight time, for insurance purposes, pretending not to be PIC. The Tribunal disallowed the time and held that TC was correct to refuse the application for the rating.

[Alex335]

I recall there's a TATC case about someone's eligibility for a float rating based on the aircraft owner (I believe) riding along during their "solo" flight time, for insurance purposes, pretending not to be PIC. The Tribunal disallowed the time and held that TC was correct to refuse the application for the rating.

Yeah solo time is a whole other ballgame. As far as I know in Canada solo time must be solo (no passengers). In the states they have exceptions in certain cases where a student can solo with an instructor passively monitoring but not the same in Canada. Think it was to work around some insurance requirements they have down there in when flying in complex and twins.

PIC time is a little more flexible. You can be PIC with a CFI sitting in the right seat but can’t log solo. You used to be able to log flight tests as PIC also if agreed upon prior to the flight.

As far as responsibilities go the owner would definitely be liable at the end of the day, regardless who is acting as PIC at the moment I would think. Which would tie in to my main concern of even contemplating offering a rental, regardless of meeting insurance minimums many experienced pilots have done stupid things in complex aircraft. 10-20hrs Dual on type wouldn’t exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling

Really not too sure how it works on the insurance side though. Since would definitely want commercial coverage vs adding a pilot to a private policy like many of the owners of singles do. Never dealt with commercial insurance so no idea how it works, what minimums they require, ect. I wouldn’t be surprised though if it’s not to far removed from 20-50hrs on type for a twin. Ive seen instructors require 50hrs on type before they can instruct on the flight school’s twin, and I’m guessing that’s tied back to the policies insurance requirements (unless they just lack the 50hrs multi on any type).

[Alex335]

Basically If someone is PIC, that means they carry the can: they're responsible for everything that happens. You can't pretend to your insurance company that you're the responsible one on board, and that premiums should be based on you sitting up front, while simultaneously pretending to TC and the rest of the world that someone else was responsible and therefore they should log PIC time. If they put PIC time in their logbook under those circumstances, they would frankly be lying through their teeth.

This is something I’m not too sure about. If someone is qualified to act as PIC, meets the insurance minimums, what would preclude them from acting as PIC while not under dual instruction?

Many people have flown aircraft with a more experienced pilot in the passenger seat (while not under instruction), if the pilot in the right seat makes a suggestion to the pilot he wouldn’t suddenly become the PIC for the rest of the flight.

Or if flying around with a friend in their new aircraft, and you noticed 3 red lights on final, suggesting a go around would probably be a wise decision, and also not make you the PIC.

As long as the pilot is qualified to act as PIC I was under the impression pilots can agree who will be PIC for the flight, or leg if on a longer trip. It doesn’t preclude the other pilot from helping out, handling comms, using a VNC to navigate, ect...

Of course if one pilot is not qualified to act as PIC, doesn’t hold the appropriate ratings, and doesn’t meet insurance requirements it would be a very different story.

[ahramin]

I rent a Navajo on occasion. Getting added to the owner's insurance was no big deal. Basically there is nothing different from renting a single vs a twin. The insurance company will certainly want a checkout, who is going to checkout the rental pilot?

I think your biggest problem is going to be finding someone who is interested in paying you for an aircraft that they can't use unless you are sitting in the right seat. Not very useful in my opinion.

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is something I’m not too sure about. If someone is qualified to act as PIC, meets the insurance minimums, what would preclude them from acting as PIC while not under dual instruction?

——————

As long as the pilot is qualified to act as PIC I was under the impression pilots can agree who will be PIC for the flight, or leg if on a longer trip. It doesn’t preclude the other pilot from helping out, handling comms, using a VNC to navigate, ect...

The problem is that the OP’s original post said his target market is

I know most flight schools only rent their twins as dual, so there might be a market for people seeking PIC multi time.

Those folks won’t pretty much by definition have the time to be just added to the insurance.

In any case the first thing TC is going to look for is who signed the Journey Log, as that person has to be the PIC as per the CAR. So the question I have for the OP is are you going to let the guy/gal renting the airplane sign the log book ?

For the renter pilot if you want the time to count for a higher license then you have to either be receiving dual from a qualified person or be the PIC in the situation here. If the owner is signing the Journey Log then you are just a passenger and the time does not count for anything

[Alex335]

I rent a Navajo on occasion. Getting added to the owner's insurance was no big deal. Basically there is nothing different from renting a single vs a twin. The insurance company will certainly want a checkout, who is going to checkout the rental pilot?

I think your biggest problem is going to be finding someone who is interested in paying you for an aircraft that they can't use unless you are sitting in the right seat. Not very useful in my opinion.

That’s a pretty sweet deal for just a checkride. They didn’t require dual instruction hours from one of their approved pilots? Guess it probably depends on your logbook experience, I’ve seem insurance companies require +10 hours of dual training from an approved pilot just to add a pilot to the policy of a complex/single (previous history only being 172/or 172 combined with low time). Would’ve imagined with a twin would make it significantly worse for a low time, or no complex/HP experience pilot to get on the policy. Higher time and experienced pilots generally don’t need multi PIC since they would already be employed and have tons of hours in complex retracts, or even turbines. Someone looking for their first 50hrs multi PIC would likely be fresh from training on a PPL or CPL building time to hit 250 for their IATRA with only C172 time in their logbook.

From the places I know of with twins around here they won’t even let a basic Seminole go unless it’s for dual instruction towards multi or group 1. Something a little more complicated like a Seneca probably even tougher. Though think I’ve heard of a few places that rent DA42’s (maybe less worry due to FADEC nannies protecting the engines).

For an experienced multi rated pilot who just needs a twin for a family vacation, vs initial multi PIC hours building fresh off 5hrs in a Seminole/172 time. Worrying about mismanaged systems and gear up wouldn’t be much of a concern. Dunno how many people like that are around looking to rent twins, would be much cheaper and fast to travel with the family on AC/WJ

[Alex335]

In any case the first thing TC is going to look for is who signed the Journey Log, as that person has to be the PIC as per the CAR. So the question I have for the OP is are you going to let the guy/gal renting the airplane sign the log book ?

For the renter pilot if you want the time to count for a higher license then you have to either be receiving dual from a qualified person or be the PIC in the situation here. If the owner is signing the Journey Log then you are just a passenger and the time does not count for anything

Only time I would make a journey log entry was to red card an aircraft when renting 172s from the local flight club? My time was counted as PIC toward licences and ratings by TC with no issues. Is this a commercial registered vs private registered only issue? I was anticipating commercial registration and insurance would likely be involved, though not always required.

There is a rental agreement the PIC signs when signing out and aircraft. Could something like that be done if commercially registering the aircraft (if required to operate in the manner a typical flight club/school fleet operates). I think they only made journey log entries at the end of the business day?

What would be the problem with a rental pilot making an entry into the journey log? Potential entry errors, or something more significant?

[PilotDAR]

I was anticipating commercial registration and insurance would likely be involved,

If you're going down that road, it's a whole different discussion. You'll need an operating certificate, and the supporting manuals and systems for your organization, and yes, insurance will change. You'll need a pilot who's entitled to train pilots on type. There's some cost and responsibility to that.

DA42’s (maybe less worry due to FADEC nannies protecting the engines)

Yeah, Diamond installed that system so the owner would not feel the need to ride around right seat

Once the rental pilot is paying for a twin correctly operated within a commercial operating system system, they will want to take the plane as they wish.

Alex, you seem to be sidestepping some wise and very experienced thoughts here, the advice is free, and trust me, way more valuable to you than that!

In the mean time, speaking as a pilot whose flown right seat to a less experienced pilots lots, If you are not confident that the rental pilot will remember the gear, and not shock cool your engines, you simply should not let them fly your plane. You either trust that the pilot is diligent, or you do not, there is no middle ground on this. Sure, we have all had to build experience, but some things are basic care and control considerations, and a pilot attitude, rather than an experience based skill. I have found, and state to a couple of owners that they were not caring adequately to their airplane while they were flying left seat to me.

And, worst, if the "rental" pilot left seat gets it wrong while you're right seat, perhaps being more bold, confident that you'll fix it. You may be in for a miserable, life threatening situation.

20 some years ago, an owner chose to ride right seat to me in his 172, while I flight tested the plane for a modification he had installed. The flight went very well, through to completion of the regulatory portion I was there to fly. The right seat owner mentioned in passing that neither he, nor the plane had flown in six months prior to this flight, and, he would be checking out three of his colleague pilots for spring operations next week (it was a commercial plane). I surmised, and confirmed by asking, that he had not flown in six months either. "Hey, perhaps you should fly a few circuits from the right, while I'm here..." He seemed reluctant, but agreed that it would be good idea. His first two circuits were poor, and the third landing I took away from him to save the plane from damage. This pilot was not up to flying from the right, much less correcting someone else's errors from that side! I've been the experienced pilot right seat in some really unwanted circumstances, it's not as easy as it sounds....

I’ve been considering renting out my twin for some extra spending cash towards avionics.

Alex, no matter which way you cut it, the lowest cost to you for the avionics you want, will just be to save your own money, and buy them without renting out your plane. I have owned planes since 1986, and never considered renting one out. It is my opinion that it is just not worth the hassle and risk for the small return.

[Bede]

PilotDAR and Photofly have pretty much addressed what I was going to write. I have a couple points to add:
1) There's nothing legally stopping you from renting out your airplane. There is, however, an issue with you renting out your airplane and you being PIC. That's called a commercial air service. Either you're PIC or the renter is. This has to be determined prior to the flight. There is no advantage to you sitting in the airplane to make sure that everything is done right.
2) Ahramin didn't mention, but I believe he's an airline pilot with thousands of hours of multi time. That's why he can rent the Navajo.
3) I have 2 airplanes: a C150 and a floatplane. The 150 policy lets anyone fly it who I want. The floatplane says that "only named insured may manipulate the controls". I'd a imagine that the policy for your twin says something similar.
4) If you want to rent it out, the insurance will say that it's a commercial operation. If you're a commercial operation the insurance will want to see an OC.
5) The way around all of this insurance is to get the renter to purchase their own renters insurance. This would only be worth it if they buy a significant amount of block time.

[photofly]

This is something I’m not too sure about. If someone is qualified to act as PIC, meets the insurance minimums, what would preclude them from acting as PIC while not under dual instruction?

Because PIC is really determined by who is responsible, not who does what acts. It's in the Aeronautics Act:

"pilot-in-command means, in relation to an aircraft, the pilot having responsibility and authority for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; (commandant de bord)" - my emphasis.

Your purpose in taking a more experienced pilot along is to guard a less experienced pilot from making mistakes. You're not giving them any authority: you are reserving the right to override the other pilot, and therefore you are the PIC. You cannot have it both ways. If the renter is responsible for the safety of the flight they have to have the authority to make the mistake of a gear-up landing and to toast your cylinders. You can't hand off responsibility only when things are going well.

Is this a commercial registered vs private registered only issue? I was anticipating commercial registration and insurance would likely be involved, though not always required.

Just to be clear, you can only register an aircraft as commercial if you hold a valid Operating Certificate of some kind. You are not required or allowed to do that, because you are not operating an air transport service, a flight training service, or another form of commercial air service for which an OC is required (in 700.02(2)) Be thankful - you don't want the headache. And the costs of the remedial maintenance to install your twin on an approved maintenance schedule anyway will wipe out any profit from this venture for the next 100 years.

Commercial insurance may be required but that has a different meaning: insurance companies want to know if your aircraft is to be used with the intention of making a profit. They will ask you a lot of stringent questions about your business plans if so.

I know technically anyone with 50hrs multi time can provide multi instruction but I honestly have no idea how that works either, and have no interest in doing initial multi instruction.

Again, for clarity, that would not be permitted. Even if you met the requirements and were interested, the aircraft would have to be obtained "at arm's length from" the instrutor; using the instructor's own aircraft is not allowed.

There is a rental agreement the PIC signs when signing out and aircraft. Could something like that be done if commercially registering the aircraft (if required to operate in the manner a typical flight club/school fleet operates). I think they only made journey log entries at the end of the business day?

More regulatory explanations... FTU's - are permitted to operate a Daily Flight Record and enter only daily entries in a Journey Log: see 605.94(2)(b). Otherwise a new line in the journey log is required for each flight under a different PIC. Which is your purpose, after all.

[ahramin]

I heard there is an instructor at Glacier Air in Squamish who lost his medical due to heart problems but still instructs licenced pilots (I'm guessing mountain training or tailwheel instruction). Transport Canada doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Similarly we have a private pilot at the local field who teaches tailwheel for compensation. I don't think TC thinks it's worth the effort to catch him.

[photofly]

You don't in theory need an instructor rating (and therefore don't even need a licence) to teach mountain flying or tailwheel, because there's no mountain rating or tailwheel rating. He wouldn't get away with ab-initio teaching, nor would a student be allowed to claim time flown with him towards the part of the instrument rating training that has to be flown dual with a qualified person.

I would also guess that if there was an accident or infraction that came up for review, it's certainly feasible that TC might decide on enforcement against him for a breach of 404.03(1), having exercised the privileges of a licence (acting as the pilot-in-command of an aircraft) without a valid medical appropriate to the licence. The fine is up to $5,000 per flight, for an individual.

Again, the definition of PIC is the person who assumes responsibility for the safety of the flight. If he's doing that then he's PIC, and without a medical that's open to enforcement action.

[Alex335]

Sounds way too complicated, and risky. Anything made from a rental can quickly be wiped out by overhauling a pair of TSIO/LTSIO-360’s. Probably why most places refuse to rent their twins out for anything other then dual instruction.

[ahramin]

Agreed but who is PIC? The pilot without a medical or the pilot who is receiving training on an aircraft that they are not competent to fly? Sounds like they are sort of sharing that responsibility. One is PIC for legalities, the other is PIC for realities.

[Alex335]

I heard there is an instructor at Glacier Air in Squamish who lost his medical due to heart problems but still instructs licenced pilots (I'm guessing mountain training or tailwheel instruction). Transport Canada doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Similarly we have a private pilot at the local field who teaches tailwheel for compensation. I don't think TC thinks it's worth the effort to catch him.

Wouldn’t that require a CPL at least if the pilot is working for hire? If he was providing free instruction for something that doesn’t require a CFI, maybe it’s allowed. But the second someone is being payed for pilot services it starts to sound a lot like working for hire which is prohibited on a PPL

[photofly]

Agreed but who is PIC? The pilot without a medical or the pilot who is receiving training on an aircraft that they are not competent to fly? Sounds like they are sort of sharing that responsibility. One is PIC for legalities, the other is PIC for realities.

The PIC is the one with authority and responsibility for safety. If your instructor is the only one with experience of the kind of flying that is being conducted, it seems clear-cut. He's PIC. I agree the law is black and white, and reality is full of shades of grey. But, if it feels wrong, it probably is wrong.

Wouldn’t that require a CPL at least if the pilot is working for hire?

If he has an instructor rating, he must already hold a CPL. He still holds the CPL, even without a medical.

[ahramin]

Sounds way too complicated, and risky. Anything made from a rental can quickly be wiped out by overhauling a pair of TSIO/LTSIO-360’s. Probably why most places refuse to rent their twins out for anything other then dual instruction.

Or you could just rent to pilots who are able to fly. They aren't that hard to find, even today. I rent my aircraft out to a couple young guys and it's been great. They add value by keeping the plane flying often and I get my fixed costs covered, in return they get experience on a rare type. Win-win-win. I see so many planes around here wasting away to dust because their owners can't bear to see their precious baby flown by anyone else.

Don't fall for the delusion that there's something extraordinary about flying around in an airplane that isn't a C172. There's nothing difficult about flying a pair of TSIO-360s and frankly a ground briefing should be enough for most pilots.