B1900 or flight instruction?

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av8tour
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B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by av8tour »

Hi everyone. This is my first post as a member on this forum, but I have been a long time lurker nonetheless.

I have just finished my CPL and Multi-instrument ratings and I now stand in front of two paths and I am conflicted on which one to take.

1- Do an instructor rating and instruct for a year or two until I have some hours to apply for the regionals (Air Georgian, Jazz, Westjet Encore, Porter, Pal, etc)

2- Write the IATRA and fly 50 more hours, jump on the B1900 at a relatively crappy operator in a relatively crappy location, work for a year, then apply to the aforementioned regional operators.

I am conflicted because the first option will allow me to work at a place where I can have a life with my family (I am married with a newborn), however the downside to that would be Cessna hours instead of Turbine multi engine hours. Also, pay could be less than what I would receive flying the B1900 as an FO.

The cons of the other option is that my family and I will be living in a crappy town, with no social life whatsoever, and nothing to do. There will be a bond for two years for the training (so I will have to pay half that if I leave after one year). The pro is, lots of Multi turbine time.

Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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Last edited by av8tour on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

172_Captain
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by 172_Captain »

Here’s a novel idea. Stay out your bond, keep the money, and make more as a Capt. The regionals and Air Georgian will still be there in 2 years....wait....
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B208
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by B208 »

Instructing gives you PIC x-country and night time. These are needed for your ATPL. Add that to the lifestyle considerations and I'd say instruct. Also, Instructing is fun and rewarding.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Two questions you'll need to answer:
Do the regionals hire with only instructor time?
Can't upgrade at the regionals without an ATPL, so how are you going to get the required hours for the ATPL.
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ant_321
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by ant_321 »

If instructing isn’t something you really, really want to do, don’t do it. There are far too many people instructing just so they can live in the centre of the universe 🤢 and don’t do their students justice. And where is the location for the 1900? Is it that bad? I had a way better social life living in a small town than I ever have since moving to the yyz area.
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JR737
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by JR737 »

1900 time is far superior to instructor time. Suck it up for the year or two in a shitty location and move on to the bigs (if that's what you want for an end goal) Your time on the 1900 will put your resume ahead of the ones with instructor time
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photofly
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by photofly »

Do an instructor rating and instruct for a year or two
Spare your unfortunate students the hell of being instructed by someone with no desire to teach, and go and fly, if that's what you want to do. The people you would otherwise be instructing will thank you for it.
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av8tour
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by av8tour »

photofly wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:43 pm
Do an instructor rating and instruct for a year or two
Spare your unfortunate students the hell of being instructed by someone with no desire to teach, and go and fly, if that's what you want to do. The people you would otherwise be instructing will thank you for it.
This is assuming that I hate instructing. On the contrary I love teaching, I taught ground school before, and I tutored high school and university students as well. I have no problem instructing, if anything I am sure I will enjoy it. The issue here is, would I be able to make a living instructing if say I am living in Montreal? I have a family and I want to know if I can have "sufficient" income to survive while building time and experience.
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av8tour
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by av8tour »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:45 pm
Two questions you'll need to answer:
Do the regionals hire with only instructor time?
Can't upgrade at the regionals without an ATPL, so how are you going to get the required hours for the ATPL.
I actually do not know the answer to the first question. It would help if I do.

As for the second question, the carrier has PICUS to offer. I can get 100 PIC that way. I could fly 80 hours PIC with the money I would otherwise spend on the instructor's rating. I also have 100 PIC night time. So ATPL requirements will not be a problem.
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GoinVertical
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by GoinVertical »

Can you get enough PICUS hours to meet all the requirements for an ATPL these days? Also, be careful, a lot of operations have PICUS programs but don't have a lot of captains that are qualified to do it.

Also, I know guys (at least 2) being turned down at regionals and elsewhere due to lack of PIC time.

Instruct for a year or two if you think you like it. Work hard, build time fast, and apply to Jazz/Encore/Sky/Porter. I know multiple guys and gals that have gotten these jobs with just instructing (a bit of Multi-IFR instructing too) time. If no joy there, apply to a less-shitty 704 or 705Lite™ operation and build some turbine time there, then hit up the regionals or wherever you want to go.
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boeingboy
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by boeingboy »

I'd take the 1900 time. In the end you'll go farther with it.

As for having no social life....dude - You said you have a newborn (congrats for that!) trust me....you'll have no social life anyways!
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av8tour
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by av8tour »

boeingboy wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:16 pm
I'd take the 1900 time. In the end you'll go farther with it.

As for having no social life....dude - You said you have a newborn (congrats for that!) trust me....you'll have no social life anyways!
haha you made the wife laugh and cry. You are right nonetheless. I think I should suck it up and get the multi turbine time while I could. I might come across as a whinny guy complaining about a year in a small town in the middle of nowhere but we have been trying to move to a bigger city where the weather is good for years now. But what is one more year anyway :cry:
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av8tour
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by av8tour »

GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:15 pm
Can you get enough PICUS hours to meet all the requirements for an ATPL these days? Also, be careful, a lot of operations have PICUS programs but don't have a lot of captains that are qualified to do it.

Also, I know guys (at least 2) being turned down at regionals and elsewhere due to lack of PIC time.

Instruct for a year or two if you think you like it. Work hard, build time fast, and apply to Jazz/Encore/Sky/Porter. I know multiple guys and gals that have gotten these jobs with just instructing (a bit of Multi-IFR instructing too) time. If no joy there, apply to a less-shitty 704 or 705Lite™ operation and build some turbine time there, then hit up the regionals or wherever you want to go.
I was told I could get up to 100 hrs but you are right, it is not guaranteed.

What is a 705Lite?
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propfeather
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by propfeather »

Why limit yourself to a "crappy operator"? There's tons of hiring going on out there, you should be able to find a few options better than that. IMO, it's worth it to get some real operational experience.
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GoinVertical
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by GoinVertical »

av8tour wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:34 pm
GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:15 pm
Can you get enough PICUS hours to meet all the requirements for an ATPL these days? Also, be careful, a lot of operations have PICUS programs but don't have a lot of captains that are qualified to do it.

Also, I know guys (at least 2) being turned down at regionals and elsewhere due to lack of PIC time.

Instruct for a year or two if you think you like it. Work hard, build time fast, and apply to Jazz/Encore/Sky/Porter. I know multiple guys and gals that have gotten these jobs with just instructing (a bit of Multi-IFR instructing too) time. If no joy there, apply to a less-shitty 704 or 705Lite™ operation and build some turbine time there, then hit up the regionals or wherever you want to go.
I was told I could get up to 100 hrs but you are right, it is not guaranteed.

What is a 705Lite?
705Lite is just a bit of a joke. Think smaller 705 operators like Perimeter, Wasaya, CMA, PAL, etc. In the current climate there are smaller operators hiring Dash 8 and ATR FO's with 500TT. I know people that have gotten Dash 8 jobs without even any multi time (other than what it takes to get the Group 1).

I say go get 500-1000 PIC instructing. Hit it hard, get onto teaching multi-IFR, and if you have a resume that isn't written in crayon don't interview poorly you'll be in great shape to go to an airline (that isn't a sketchy, shitty, 1900 operator.)

I don't know where you live but my guess is if you're not in a big hub you will find much better options that fit your lifestyle and give you more time at home if you instruct. It's also not the worst gig to have with a youngster since you make your own hours and can always cancel or push your day. (Even if your students hate you...)
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by valleyboy »

Here is a likely a very unpopular opinion but you are not qualified to teach with that amount of time even though TC says you are. The only option is to go to the right seat and learn.
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Moesif
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Moesif »

What makes you think you can automatically fly a 1900 after getting your ratings? Unless you somehow have a guranteed opportunity then that option sounds like a gamble (you got a family to think of..). Instructing however is much more viable in terms of finding employment and sounds like ur family would benefit from being in the city

Also go check the job boards. You'll seldom ever see 1900 or any turbine jobs posted for 250hrs
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Cleared4TheOption
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Cleared4TheOption »

valleyboy wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:35 am
Here is a likely a very unpopular opinion but you are not qualified to teach with that amount of time even though TC says you are. The only option is to go to the right seat and learn.
Teaching a PPL or even a ME rating at 200hrs is fine if instructing is your thing. If you haven't figured out the basics of flying well enough to teach it by 200hrs (assuming you can handle teaching, not everyone can), you will never figure it out.

On the other hand, CPL and IFR is not something that should be taught by anyone with less than 1000hrs and in the case of IFR, real world experience. Unfortunately it often doesn't happen that way. I had an IFR instructor call in a PIREP for light icing in cloud (no boots) in November bellow 0. You know how on the GFA it is stated "NIL-LGT ICGIC ABV FZ LVL"... :roll:
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Cleared4TheOption
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Cleared4TheOption »

Moesif wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:31 am
What makes you think you can automatically fly a 1900 after getting your ratings? Unless you somehow have a guranteed opportunity then that option sounds like a gamble (you got a family to think of..). Instructing however is much more viable in terms of finding employment and sounds like ur family would benefit from being in the city

Also go check the job boards. You'll seldom ever see 1900 or any turbine jobs posted for 250hrs
There are plenty of people that have and will be hired on a 1900 with 250hrs. I personally know; someone with ~250hrs who started on a dash8, someone who had under 1000hrs instructing started on a cj1, someone with 250hrs start on a crj. There are also a few operators of 1900s and metros who will hire straight out of a college program with 250hrs. You'll never be captain if you need an ATPL (1900s don't anymore) but that won't mater if you just want to get into the airlines where you'll have to wait many years anyway.

And it's a faster way to captain on a smaller aircraft (which pays far more than right seat at an airline) than instructing would be. King Air 350 captain job posting, would you take;
1) 1500hrs of talking someone else through flying the plane where they don't fly if wind is 25kts and ceilings are less than 1000ft OR
2) 1500hrs right seat through icing, weather radar operation, unfamiliar airports, passenger briefings and customer service, ILS approaches with 20kts tail wind at altitude, PMAs, planning decent from FL200, speed restrictions, adjusting altitude for wind/turbulence or tops, setting cabin pressure and rate for cruise/the field, landing at night in 2SM -RA, reverse on landing etc...

I know who I'd hire. Both are typically about 2 years of experience.

Automatically fly a 1900? No, but it's not much of a stretch. Finding employment in aviation right now is not much of a gamble at all. Just ask my last employer that had 100% turnover in the last year and it's not for lack of pay, location or QOL. Current employer hired 10+ FOs in the last 8 months... we have about 20 FOs.
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Zaibatsu »

valleyboy wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:35 am
Here is a likely a very unpopular opinion but you are not qualified to teach with that amount of time even though TC says you are. The only option is to go to the right seat and learn.
You’re right. It is unpopular. By the time you’re an instructor you’ve been taught it twice and taught to teach it once.
Cleared4TheOption wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:44 am

On the other hand, CPL and IFR is not something that should be taught by anyone with less than 1000hrs and in the case of IFR, real world experience. Unfortunately it often doesn't happen that way. I had an IFR instructor call in a PIREP for light icing in cloud (no boots) in November bellow 0. You know how on the GFA it is stated "NIL-LGT ICGIC ABV FZ LVL"... :roll:
So............. who cares? You know that you can give PIREPs for absolutely nothing. It’s a good way of verifying weather that’s been g̶u̶e̶s̶s̶e̶d̶ forecast.

Or you can teach direct enter enter or cancel IFR and be of no use to passing a ride.
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by valleyboy »

You’re right. It is unpopular. By the time you’re an instructor you’ve been taught it twice and taught to teach it once.

But you still don't have the experience to teach and mentor someone. Good stick, rudder and decision making means very little anymore with all the dumbing down of today. It's a critical time with pilots loosing skills due to automation but automation hasn't caught up to off set this issue.
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Moesif
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Moesif »

Cleared4TheOption wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:32 am
Moesif wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:31 am
What makes you think you can automatically fly a 1900 after getting your ratings? Unless you somehow have a guranteed opportunity then that option sounds like a gamble (you got a family to think of..). Instructing however is much more viable in terms of finding employment and sounds like ur family would benefit from being in the city

Also go check the job boards. You'll seldom ever see 1900 or any turbine jobs posted for 250hrs
There are plenty of people that have and will be hired on a 1900 with 250hrs. I personally know; someone with ~250hrs who started on a dash8, someone who had under 1000hrs instructing started on a cj1, someone with 250hrs start on a crj. There are also a few operators of 1900s and metros who will hire straight out of a college program with 250hrs. You'll never be captain if you need an ATPL (1900s don't anymore) but that won't mater if you just want to get into the airlines where you'll have to wait many years anyway.

And it's a faster way to captain on a smaller aircraft (which pays far more than right seat at an airline) than instructing would be. King Air 350 captain job posting, would you take;
1) 1500hrs of talking someone else through flying the plane where they don't fly if wind is 25kts and ceilings are less than 1000ft OR
2) 1500hrs right seat through icing, weather radar operation, unfamiliar airports, passenger briefings and customer service, ILS approaches with 20kts tail wind at altitude, PMAs, planning decent from FL200, speed restrictions, adjusting altitude for wind/turbulence or tops, setting cabin pressure and rate for cruise/the field, landing at night in 2SM -RA, reverse on landing etc...

I know who I'd hire. Both are typically about 2 years of experience.

Automatically fly a 1900? No, but it's not much of a stretch. Finding employment in aviation right now is not much of a gamble at all. Just ask my last employer that had 100% turnover in the last year and it's not for lack of pay, location or QOL. Current employer hired 10+ FOs in the last 8 months... we have about 20 FOs.
Yes I understand that its possible and that it absolutely makes for better experience. But for OP's situation you cant deny the uncertainty factor with going option B. He could get the multi ifr and then not get call backs for a long while since he has the absolute min requirement (for a few select operators). What's he supposed to be doing at that point? He would be forced to flip burgers to support his new family

Going the instructor route is less glamorous but I know id be happy with the promise of flying employment in a place that the family would like especially when you have a kid on the way
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Trematode
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by Trematode »

Instructor, all the way.

Put in at least a year. Stay home and comfortable with the family. Get the PIC and night cross country time for your ATPL, or at least a good chunk of it out of the way. Fly safe. Don't do anything stupid, and you'll make important connections and build a rep for later on down the road when a referral goes a long way. You might even make some lifelong friends.

The 1900 time does nothing for you. 703,704, and 705 operators are hiring for turbines these days at 250 hours. It's insanity, and it's only going to get worse (better for low time pilots). They don't give a shit if you've got turbine time as long as you've got a heartbeat and a license. The 1900 job would take you away from your family and add nothing of value to your logbook. You could say you would get valuable experience in a two-crew environment, or fly with seasoned captains -- but with the industry in its current state, you'd be just as likely to learn terrible habits from inexperienced and inept captains... Not to mention, you don't need that prior experience to get a job in today's climate anyway!!

Instruct. Take it seriously. You'll have to master all the exercises to teach them, so you should come out of it with good hands and feet (hopefully). And you'll have to learn to deal with a bunch of different personalities in a productive and professional manner -- this sets you up nicely to be part of a professional crew, if you're thoughtful, and learn the right lessons.

If you decide later the instructor route wasn't for you, you'll at least have the PIC, family, and an easier time finding a turbine job (with a faster upgrade to captain and a better paycheck), or even an airline job.

Good luck.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Besides the few select colleges with the Jazz award program, which regionals are taking at 250hrs?

Last I heard, Encore was a hard 1000hrs. Jazz seems to be similar with the exception mentioned above. Porter and Sky Regional are at least 1000 as well.
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C.W.E.
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Re: B1900 or flight instruction?

Post by C.W.E. »

Instruct. Take it seriously. You'll have to master all the exercises to teach them, so you should come out of it with good hands and feet (hopefully). And you'll have to learn to deal with a bunch of different personalities in a productive and professional manner -- this sets you up nicely to be part of a professional crew, if you're thoughtful, and learn the right lessons.
I second the above.
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