Air Canada and SFO - Part III

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Tubkal
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Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Tubkal »

An Air Canada Airbus A319-100, registration C-FZUJ performing flight AC-741 from Toronto,ON (Canada) to San Francisco,CA (USA) with 110 people on board, was on approach to San Francisco's runway 28L when the crew did not report on tower frequency. The aircraft continued for a safe landing on runway 28L.

The Canadian TSB reported the landing clearance was issued, however, it was not heard by the flight crew because they didn't switch to tower frequency. The airline conducts an investigation


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ce99db3&opt=0


Well, well, well...
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

So, did they have tower tuned up but just didn’t check in, or did they not have it tuned at all? That excerpt isn’t clear.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by altiplano »

Draft hogs will take down this whole fucking airline with one incident unless they learn to manage themselves.

Used to be our contract protected you from yourself, now some of these morons think unlimited OT and doing 100+ a month is a pay raise...
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Inverted2
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Inverted2 »

Credit where it is due: They landed on the correct runway and not before or beside it. 8)
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Let’s Go Brandon
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by altiplano »

I've had a few PMs on my comment on this thread, all I gotta say:

If you're screwing up in SFO at this airline you're either stupid or tired... I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, must have been tired. If not what's the excuse?

People land every day somewhere in the US without a clearance, people miss freq switches all the time, but of all the airports in the system SFO is 'A' Game territory given the other screw up. Senior guys too, they should know better...
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Tubkal
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Tubkal »

Inverted2 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:50 am Credit where it is due: They landed on the correct runway and not before or beside it. 8)
http://avherald.com/h?article=4b016414
Incident: Canada A320 at San Francisco on Oct 22nd 2017, landed despite go around instructions

They accomplished that already
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Inverted2
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Inverted2 »

Do you know that this incident actually involved overtime junkies? Doesn’t say what time of day it occurred. Might have been one of those 3 am YYZ time landings? I would imagine there would be some significantly lower experience in the flight deck too with very quick upgrades and hiring barely above the ATPL mins.
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Let’s Go Brandon
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Inverted2 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:45 pm Do you know that this incident actually involved overtime junkies? Doesn’t say what time of day it occurred. Might have been one of those 3 am YYZ time landings? I would imagine there would be some significantly lower experience in the flight deck too with very quick upgrades and hiring barely above the ATPL mins.
First off, a quick search of the date and flight number would show you this occurred at 13:20 pacific time. For anyone who works at AC, it’s easy to determine who this crew was with a quick search. Both crew members were very senior and experienced.
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Dry Guy
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Dry Guy »

Does the 319 fleet do that distracting stable approach calls thing?
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by altiplano »

AC SOP is absolutely too much talking on final approach. All the calls you have to make when everything is normal to prove that you're paying attention distracts you from paying attention to things that matter.
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Last edited by altiplano on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RRJetPilot
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by RRJetPilot »

Captain was at 117hr the month before. Altiplano was 100% correct.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by altiplano »

......
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Last edited by altiplano on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
C.W.E.
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by C.W.E. »

SFO seems to be Air Canada's black hole.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

altiplano wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:32 pm Senior crew I hear. They started early in YUL that morning.

AC SOP is absolutely too much talking on final approach. All the calls you have to make when everything is normal to prove that you're paying attention distracts you from paying attention to things that matter.
Not to mention the software update that now has some planes doing auto callouts what feels like every 3 seconds. But again, only sometimes. :roll:

You think some semblance of conformity throughout the fleet (like almost every other airline!) would make sense.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

altiplano wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am Draft hogs will take down this whole fucking airline with one incident unless they learn to manage themselves.

Used to be our contract protected you from yourself, now some of these morons think unlimited OT and doing 100+ a month is a pay raise...
I was going to PM you with this, but figured it made for good discussion instead.

I get the impression that a lot of guys are rushing to “stack some paper” before the new duty regs kick in and put a stop to the crazy amounts of OT some of them are working. Not only that, but at least on the 320, I’m sure the”gettin won’t be this good” when the 37 is back. The music has to stop sometime, and too many guys are trying to do too much.
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lownslow
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by lownslow »

You’d think flying so much one would be at the top of their game.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by pelmet »

There is no guarantee that fatigue is the cause. Frequently at airports like this, the approach controller will switch the crew over to tower but the instruction is to call the tower at a certain point such as the FAF which is several miles ahead of the aircraft. It happens on occasion that a crew for whatever reason forgets. The scientists will no doubt say that fatigue increases the risk of forgetting something but it can happen very easily when not tired due to some sort of distraction/memory lapse.

Hopefully AC won't try to blame the controller like they did for the taxiway incident.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by C.W.E. »

The scientists will no doubt say that fatigue increases the risk of forgetting something but it can happen very easily when not tired due to some sort of distraction/memory lapse.
However when you have two pilots flying an airline category plane with paying passengers on board how do you explain both pilots being so careless and incompetent that they both forget something as simple as confirming they have a landing clearance from the tower?

Can someone explain that to me?
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Daniel Cooper »

If they are distracted by something. Having to switch frequencies at the busiest time of an approach always seemed weird to me. This is compounded by SOPs that pile on the workload at the FAF and at 1000 AGL when this frequency change usually occurs.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Air Canada and SFO - Part III

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Personally I think only pilots who never ever missed a frequency change in their whole flying career should be criticizing this crew.......
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