Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

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W5
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Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by W5 »

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/upd ... ical-team/

Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team
Russ NilesNovember 9, 20193



Bloomberg is reporting the independent group of experts formed to evaluate Boeing’s fixes for the 737 MAX has signed off on changes to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System. The Technical Advisory Board was convened shortly after the aircraft was grounded last March and presented its preliminary report to the FAA, Congress was told by the agency on Friday. “The TAB presented its preliminary report to the FAA, detailing their finding that the MCAS design changes are compliant with the regulations and safe,” according to a summary of its findings presented to lawmakers. Although the MCAS has passed muster, the report says there is still work to do.

“The TAB identified several items that need to be completed prior to return to service, including final data submittals and document revisions,” the summary said. It did not detail those items, however. One outstanding item is the level of training pilots will need before flying the plane in revenue service. A multinational team of training experts from Europe, Canada, Brazil and the FAA is looking at the training requirements. Boeing has said it hopes to recertify the MAX by the end of the year.
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W5
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by W5 »

Boeing Targets December For New MAX Deliveries
Kate O'ConnorNovember 11, 20190

Boeing believes it could resume deliveries of its grounded 737 MAX model as early as December, according to a progress report released by the company on Monday. The report also outlined five key milestones the company needs to reach with the FAA before the aircraft returns to service in the U.S. The first, an FAA eCab simulator certification session, was completed last week. Boeing emphasized that it is still targeting the final quarter of 2019 for certification of the aircraft’s updated flight control software.

“Based on this schedule, it is possible that the resumption of MAX deliveries to airline customers could begin in December, after certification, when the FAA issues an Airworthiness Directive rescinding the grounding order,” Boeing said. “In parallel, we are working towards final validation of the updated training requirements, which must occur before the MAX returns to commercial service, and which we now expect to begin in January.”

The milestones still to be accomplished include a “multi-day simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload,” an FAA certification flight test, submission of the “final certification deliverables and artifacts” to the FAA, and a simulator training evaluation by the Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB). Last week, both Southwest and American Airlines pushed the expected return to service dates for their MAXs to March 2020. The MAX was grounded in March 2019 after the fatal crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/bu ... eliveries/
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wan2fly99
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by wan2fly99 »

I assume this was all done in a simulator environment.

Now why don't they put the mods on a real aircraft and take it up for several hours and more and see what happens

Take it into icing conditions, into thunderstorms and see

Personally I will not go on this plane for several years, my personel feeeling
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by co-joe »

I'd fly on it tomorrow here in Canada or in the US, but I will never fly on Lion Air or Ethiopian Air, on any aircraft ever.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by goingnowherefast »

MCAS might be deemed safe. I worry about what other skeletons are waiting in the closet with the certification gong show on this plane. What other garbage got pushed through with the lack of oversight that shouldn't have?

The Boeing executives are hopefully lying awake in bed wondering the same thing. If anything else is discovered, god forbid with another crash, this plane probably won't ever fly again.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

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co-joe wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:29 am
I'd fly on it tomorrow here in Canada or in the US, but I will never fly on Lion Air or Ethiopian Air, on any aircraft ever.
Ditto for me. I wouldn’t hesitate to get on a MAX with AC, WJ or any North American carrier. As for Lion and Ethiopian, my chance for considering them for any travel plans lies between zilch and zero because I am not the least interested in any travel to those areas of the world, consequently a moot point.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

Am I to understand that the competency of some foreign airline pilots may have some effect on the possibility of having an accident in a Boeing Max?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by '97 Tercel »

You are?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by BE20 Driver »

W5 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:40 pm
Boeing has said it hopes to recertify the MAX by the end of the year.
end of which year?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

You are?
" Am I to understand " is a question, not a statement.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by complexintentions »

New Boeing MCAS training curriculum:

- If undesirable trim movement is encountered, disconnect trim system.

* Some similarities to previous runaway trim training may occur *
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by co-joe »

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 am
Am I to understand that the competency of some foreign airline pilots may have some effect on the possibility of having an accident in a Boeing Max?
When 7 pilots ride in the simulator, 2 in the front, one instructor, and 4 standing in the back logging the time like at Lion Air, and when they put 200 hour pilots in the right seat of a Boeing, and can fly 8122 hours in 9 years from PPL to accident, like Ethiopian, you're goddamn right it does Cat.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

Ahhhhh, I am not alone in my concern. :mrgreen:
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Cessna 180 »

co-joe wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:02 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 am
Am I to understand that the competency of some foreign airline pilots may have some effect on the possibility of having an accident in a Boeing Max?
When 7 pilots ride in the simulator, 2 in the front, one instructor, and 4 standing in the back logging the time like at Lion Air, and when they put 200 hour pilots in the right seat of a Boeing, and can fly 8122 hours in 9 years from PPL to accident, like Ethiopian, you're goddamn right it does Cat.
Don't forget that Sunwing puts 250 hour pilots in 737s, including the MAX.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by BigQ »

Cessna 180 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:11 pm
co-joe wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:02 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:54 am
Am I to understand that the competency of some foreign airline pilots may have some effect on the possibility of having an accident in a Boeing Max?
When 7 pilots ride in the simulator, 2 in the front, one instructor, and 4 standing in the back logging the time like at Lion Air, and when they put 200 hour pilots in the right seat of a Boeing, and can fly 8122 hours in 9 years from PPL to accident, like Ethiopian, you're goddamn right it does Cat.
Don't forget that Sunwing puts 250 hour pilots in 737s, including the MAX.
And they're flying with training captains for MONTHS, even after line checks
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by valleyboy »

the MAX.
And they're flying with training captains for MONTHS, even after line checks
All is good and automation will offset low time until it doesn't. Training captains are not god and the aircraft is not single pilot. The main question is how do pilots gain and maintain stick and rudder skills.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

The main question is how do pilots gain and maintain stick and rudder skills.
By actually performing them?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Minimums »

valleyboy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:40 am
the MAX.
And they're flying with training captains for MONTHS, even after line checks
All is good and automation will offset low time until it doesn't. Training captains are not god and the aircraft is not single pilot. The main question is how do pilots gain and maintain stick and rudder skills.
Easy. Hand fly approaches. Hand fly departures and level offs. Not all the time, but at least once a day, per pilot. Heck, even an entire leg. When is the last time you hand-flew an entire leg? I try to from time to time, and find it really does help keep me a little sharper.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by '97 Tercel »

or fly into St. John's
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

I try to from time to time, and find it really does help keep me a little sharper.
No.

It keeps you a lot sharper.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by iflyforpie »

Minimums wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:58 am
valleyboy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:40 am
the MAX.
And they're flying with training captains for MONTHS, even after line checks
All is good and automation will offset low time until it doesn't. Training captains are not god and the aircraft is not single pilot. The main question is how do pilots gain and maintain stick and rudder skills.
Easy. Hand fly approaches. Hand fly departures and level offs. Not all the time, but at least once a day, per pilot. Heck, even an entire leg. When is the last time you hand-flew an entire leg? I try to from time to time, and find it really does help keep me a little sharper.
Only if you do it without a flight director.

A monkey can hand fly and keep a scan up by matching symbols.

https://airfactsjournal.com/2018/04/fli ... ttraction/
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ReserveTank »

Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Old fella »

'97 Tercel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:12 am
or fly into St. John's
Did that a few times many years back piss cutting over the south side hills when the gales of November came slashing 😉.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. »

Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
Wow.

Has aviation come to the place that pilots are not allowed to hand fly an approach?

What happens when your automatics fail?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Gannet167 »

By that logic, so many ridiculous inferences can be drawn. Perhaps only the capt should be allowed to fly takeoff and landings, after all, passengers expect the best. No line indoc with passengers, can't have less experienced guys at the controls when passengers are paying for the highest levels of safety. Maybe we should cancel flights if there's any runway contamination, after all, highest levels of safety or nothing. All landings should be autoland, Can't risk having a pilot make an error etc. Etc.

Aviation is dynamic, there are risks, identifying and mitigating risks is the business. Never hand flying is a risk of its own and potentially much more unsafe. Whatever 'danger' passengers endure while a pilot (ahem) pilots the airplane, is easily trumped by the better levels of competence and safety from having a crew that can actually fly. If you think allowing a pilot to fly a plane is an unacceptable reduction in safety, I'd suggest you need more Sim time to solidify your own proficiency.

Passengers pay expecting competent crews (which is where safety starts), that includes maintaining skills which necessitates actually flying from time to time. There's a time and a place for it, likely not during a complicated departure in the mountains at night, IMC, into a long crew day while managing a major malfunction with a brand new guy. That's a great time to use automation. I trust a professional crew to know when it's a good time to practice flying and expect them to be well practiced.
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