Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk »

So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?
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ant_321
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ant_321 »

CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:02 pm Every generation has seen a benefit that the previous generation hasn’t seen. This is the best time to be alive in all of history.

Let’s talk about aviation. I feel like most people I talk to aren’t interested in being a pilot. One of the reasons is the very high barrier for entry with accumulating thousands of hours to finally fly for a major. There are other reasons too, some are misconceptions about needing perfect vision to fly or being good at match etc.

However,
This cadet program would be a great incentive to someone in high school looking at a possible career in aviation. As in a quicker career progression and ability to do fun work for a living. Most of us got into this business to escape a desk job.

As for the WAWCON pay, that’s another debate.
Once again, explain to me how getting more people becoming pilots is a good thing for someone in the industry. I’m no economist but I do understand supply and demand. Also, these programs are typically prohibitively expensive. If they become the norm in Canada we will end up in a situation like most of Europe where becoming a pilot will only be possible for someone with wealthy parents. I talked to a gate agent in AMS last summer whose parents had just written a cheque for 50,000 euros for his first year or a 4 year program. If these pay to fly schemes make their way over here there will be a lot of good candidates who simply won’t be able to afford to enter the industry. How many people do you fly with that wouldn’t be there if they had to pay $100k+ for flight school and a type rating? For me the answer is a lot and I’m one of them.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by goingnowherefast »

Sault and Confed will still exist as options for the normal folk (not rich kids).

If this "Jazz Approach" is as expensive as it sounds, I suspect they won't see very many applicants. A 150 grand training college for a $38 grand/yr job in a rollercoaster industry with no guarantees and constant concessions. Can go shove it....
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ogc
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ogc »

So.

Minimum cost as stated on the website $126k + tax

Plus you already need a diploma or degree and you are paying for your own type rating.

Bad precedent in my opinion, and that's a big investment to make that I cant imagine very many people would be able to afford.

Smart on Jazz part if they can get even 1 person to pay for it.
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Optimus Primer
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Optimus Primer »

CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
It isn't a logical step for Canadian aviation at all. In "most of the other countries," they don't have anything other than airlines. How is this good for everyone in aviation besides management and shareholders? The way I see it, if this is successful, the company gets to continue to deny there is a pilot shortage and therefore, has no reason to ever increase wages.

I think this Jazz Approach should go missed because I don't think it will ever really take off.
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shawnthesheep
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by shawnthesheep »

CaptainKirk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:46 am So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?
It's 126K

This would only be logical if you went straight from high school

Imagine paying for living expenses on top of this, if you don't have rich parents you can't afford this

First pay 40K for a degree

Than go pay 126K plus let's say 15K for living expenses for the 18 months

Make senses eh
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Daniel Cooper
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Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Jazz in association with Seneca College and CAE are launching a pay for type rating program with the promise of a FO job at Jazz upon completion (some conditions apply). Coming with zero flight time you will start with 18 months of integrated ATPL training at Seneca followed by the CRJ200 type rating at CAE Toronto. Cost is $126k CAD plus taxes. You also must have a Post-secondary degree, diploma or equivalent before joining the program.

https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach
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daedalusx
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by daedalusx »

Disgusting. :evil:
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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LegoMan
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by LegoMan »

Only rich kids will sign up for this, which means Jazz is in it for the money and not quality of candidates. Definitely lost respect for Jazz. I don't know if I would give my kid $126k to get a $40k a year job, sounds like a pretty terrible offer.
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daedalusx
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by daedalusx »

CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
I thought you were done ‘mentoring’ here Mr PFO4life.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Victory
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Victory »

LegoMan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:42 am Only rich kids will sign up for this, which means Jazz is in it for the money and not quality of candidates. Definitely lost respect for Jazz. I don't know if I would give my kid $126k to get a $40k a year job, sounds like a pretty terrible offer.
They want a post secondary education too so factor in another $75K if you want a university degree and you're looking at $200k for that job.
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LegoMan
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by LegoMan »

CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
This raises the barrier to entry even higher. I don't see how this will attract more people when you are paying a crazy amount of money for a conditional job offer.
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airway
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by airway »

Like a lot of you, I also thought 126K sounded like it was too much. But after thinking about it a bit I'm not so sure. I'ts been a long time since I have been involved with initial pilot training, so maybe someone can help me out with the numbers.

With the Jazz Approach program for 126K + tax (13%?) you get:

1. Private Pilot Licence
2. Commercial Pilot Licence
3. Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
4. Integrated Airline Transport Pilot License training with ATPL written
5. CRJ200 Type Rating
6. A semi guaranteed job at Jazz as a F/O when you are finished

Montair quotes $90,000 + tax for the first 4 items, based on completing the training with minimum hours. I suspect the 126K also assumes this. Hopefully someone has more realistic numbers for this training. I don't know what a CRJ 200 rating costs and it would be hard to put a number on a semi guaranteed job at Jazz without having to work for minimum wage up north for a couple of years, but i'm thinking 126K total is not bad.

I you want to be an Airline pilot for minimum training cost, you would still have to come up with the funds for the first 3 Items. I'm guessing 75K?
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jschnurr
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by jschnurr »

When I graduated from Seneca in 2009, the fees (tuition) was about $3000 per semester (3 semesters/yr, 4 years). Tuition total was about $36,000. Living expenses, books, supplies, ect on top of that.

The seneca website states that the tuition for the 4 year FPR program is now about double that ($6000/semester), or perhaps close to $75,000 for the entire program.

This new program is 18 months at the college (presumably with all the flight training, but not all the classroom training of the 4 year FPR program), followed by 8 weeks at CAE for the type rating. Can a type rating on a CRJ simulator be close to $50,000? I don't know... something seems to be over-inflating the cost somewhere here...
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vermont
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by vermont »

jschnurr wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:14 pm When I graduated from Seneca in 2009, the fees (tuition) was about $3000 per semester (3 semesters/yr, 4 years). Tuition total was about $36,000. Living expenses, books, supplies, ect on top of that.

The seneca website states that the tuition for the 4 year FPR program is now about double that ($6000/semester), or perhaps close to $75,000 for the entire program.

This new program is 18 months at the college (presumably with all the flight training, but not all the classroom training of the 4 year FPR program), followed by 8 weeks at CAE for the type rating. Can a type rating on a CRJ simulator be close to $50,000? I don't know... something seems to be over-inflating the cost somewhere here...
Even better that CAE OWNS the sim
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Bradley Tucker
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Bradley Tucker »

This makes me sick. And they wonder why we they are not getting people. No one can afford to pay that kind of money to work for what they pay.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GhostRider6 »

CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!
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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk »

shawnthesheep wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am
CaptainKirk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:46 am So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?
It's 126K

This would only be logical if you went straight from high school

Imagine paying for living expenses on top of this, if you don't have rich parents you can't afford this

First pay 40K for a degree

Than go pay 126K plus let's say 15K for living expenses for the 18 months

Make senses eh
Bro, If I can do it as an immigrant who came here in grade 10, worked 2 jobs to pay for flight training, then you can do it. If I added the years I spent begging for my first flying job (it wasn’t as easy as it is now), then finally instructing, then flying in the North, just to get to the regionals. It would’ve been far more efficient to take an additional loan and gotten the crj200 type rating with an almost guaranteed job offer right after.
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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk »

GhostRider6 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:46 pm
CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!
..
..

Yes I can see how pairing low experience with even more low experience is not a good thing. However, what do you suggest is the solution considering it’s getting harder to find pilots who already have ATPL’s?

If you were in charge what would you do? Other than saying this is bad, no I don’t like that.

I know I would want to prune my employees on company standards from day 1. Have them invested right from the beginning into their seeing their career blueprint. It’s a win-win.

I have flown with many college FO’s. Despite the fact they get shit on I have always admired their level of preparation for the flight. Of course experience lacks but in 3 years of doing the same job, multiple times a day, you get good very quick.
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GRK2
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by GRK2 »

Because some tw*t will see it as a way to jump over the hard working guys n girls who are actually out learning something about the career they have chosen. I didn't look too closely, but is there a length of term attached to this oh so awesome deal? I have flown with a number of p2f wunderkids and as my boss at the time said...keep a sharp eye on these idiots, they'll try to kill you.

I feel so sorry for the newbies who are churning out the work and getting bypassed by a buncha snotty c*nts who are flashing the cash to get ahead and thinking they know more than others.

(Rant over...buncha shit makin' me mad today!)
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