Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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TwinOtterFan
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by TwinOtterFan »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:40 am

Sounds like you are looking in the right direction. Again, Harvs Air will be a great cost effective and quick way to get the license and ratings done. Never had any complaints with pilots who trained there, so I'd guess the quality of training is good too. They even have some aerobatic stuff for a little time building fun!

Winnipeg is also home to Perimeter, they pay better than Jazz too. I'd caution you to chase lifestyle over airplanes. Yes the Dash 8 is a great airplane, but so is the ATR and King Air/1900. It's called "shiny jet syndrome" (can't believe I'm saying that about the Dash, haha). Pretty much everyone from Saskatoon to the Atlantic and the Arctic Ocean flies a mixed fleet with the Dash 8/ATR at the top. First Air/Canadian North even have old 737s. Alberta is economically hurting, so not many jobs available. BC companies pay crap with a high cost of living
Checked out Harv's air, definitely something to explore, I was looking in rotary and this Jazz program but the more I read on here and life up north I think it may be a pretty good fit for me. Shiny jet syndrome? I don't think that's me, we use the Dash for naval/Nav training the otter up north and the secret squirrels use the Beachcraft for snooping on cell phones and coms and such. Maybe its because that's what I'm around more, but those are pretty much all the birds I like, never been big on the big jets really.

So with all that, I would like to learn a lot more about life and flying up North, is this forum a good resource? or could somebody suggest something better?

As always everyone's answers and time is much appreciated.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by shimmydampner »

vermont wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 am
C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:50 am
Oh come on perimeter in no way pays better than Jazz. First year is still sub 30K.
And for most people it's not like you can live at home vs with jazz. I don't think they even pay for relocation.
Does Jazz pay for relocation?
You sure have it all figured out for a guy who doesn't even have a CPL yet. How's the PPL coming along?
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

shimmydampner wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:13 am
vermont wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 am
C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:50 am
Oh come on perimeter in no way pays better than Jazz. First year is still sub 30K.
And for most people it's not like you can live at home vs with jazz. I don't think they even pay for relocation.
Does Jazz pay for relocation?
You sure have it all figured out for a guy who doesn't even have a CPL yet. How's the PPL coming along?
Attack my points not me. like 70% of people already live near a Jazz base, absolute worst case you can commute or change bases (which apparently is very easy) good luck commuting to normal wells!

I'm talking to some people who did the ramp jobs with the smaller operators and they didn't even get free fucking tickets on their employed airline to fly in when they were hired.

I didn't know you need to be a captain to comment on factual points (I have my PPL now fyi) I'll remind anyone I see talking about politics only former PM's can talk about harper or trudeau :lol: :roll:
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Rowdy
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Rowdy »

Vermont,

A few corrections. Travel on the air canada network is not free to Jazz pilots. There is a cost, and it's more than you'd think. Its also standby and loads for the last few years have been high. Commuting is a huge pain and I wouldn't recommend it. Base changes do happen fairly quickly, but you just can't count on that. What happens if the music stops tomorrow? They remove the aircraft from the base you want? everyone else is hired into that base? Now you're stuck in YVR or maybe YUL trying to get to YYC or YYZ etc. Also, Jazz does NOT pay for relocation unless you are reduced from a base. Also a rarity.

LTC skippers are flying their backsides off trying to keep up with the hundreds of new hires and upgrades every year. There is next to no PICUS happening as a result. So you're basically going to be paying for some PIC time in a 150 or cherokee on your own time.

Its not all roses and puppy dogs out there yet.

Heck they're trying to convince people with this program to pay for type ratings and jobs! Wait til we see what they think up next.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by KenoraPilot »

Rowdy wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:09 pm
Vermont,

A few corrections. Travel on the air canada network is not free to Jazz pilots. There is a cost, and it's more than you'd think. Its also standby and loads for the last few years have been high. Commuting is a huge pain and I wouldn't recommend it. Base changes do happen fairly quickly, but you just can't count on that. What happens if the music stops tomorrow? They remove the aircraft from the base you want? everyone else is hired into that base? Now you're stuck in YVR or maybe YUL trying to get to YYC or YYZ etc. Also, Jazz does NOT pay for relocation unless you are reduced from a base. Also a rarity.

LTC skippers are flying their backsides off trying to keep up with the hundreds of new hires and upgrades every year. There is next to no PICUS happening as a result. So you're basically going to be paying for some PIC time in a 150 or cherokee on your own time.

Its not all roses and puppy dogs out there yet.

Heck they're trying to convince people with this program to pay for type ratings and jobs! Wait til we see what they think up next.
Update Rowdy,
There will be a formal PICUS program (not using LTCs) starting in early 2020. Which should help a little bit but still will be slow.
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

Rowdy wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:09 pm
Vermont,

A few corrections. Travel on the air canada network is not free to Jazz pilots. There is a cost, and it's more than you'd think. Its also standby and loads for the last few years have been high. Commuting is a huge pain and I wouldn't recommend it. Base changes do happen fairly quickly, but you just can't count on that. What happens if the music stops tomorrow? They remove the aircraft from the base you want? everyone else is hired into that base? Now you're stuck in YVR or maybe YUL trying to get to YYC or YYZ etc. Also, Jazz does NOT pay for relocation unless you are reduced from a base. Also a rarity.

LTC skippers are flying their backsides off trying to keep up with the hundreds of new hires and upgrades every year. There is next to no PICUS happening as a result. So you're basically going to be paying for some PIC time in a 150 or cherokee on your own time.

Its not all roses and puppy dogs out there yet.

Heck they're trying to convince people with this program to pay for type ratings and jobs! Wait til we see what they think up next.
I'm not trying to imply it's all roses and a perfect place (otherwise everyone would stay) I wanted to point out for most people at worst both options (north vs jazz) are basically equal with a slight advantage to jazz in the worst case.

Most people aren't going to stay with a 703 operator for their whole career so the whole base issue of being set in yul when you live in YVR is possible even if you start out somewhere else (assuming you don't go straight from perimeter to AC)
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

KenoraPilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Rowdy wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:09 pm
Vermont,

A few corrections. Travel on the air canada network is not free to Jazz pilots. There is a cost, and it's more than you'd think. Its also standby and loads for the last few years have been high. Commuting is a huge pain and I wouldn't recommend it. Base changes do happen fairly quickly, but you just can't count on that. What happens if the music stops tomorrow? They remove the aircraft from the base you want? everyone else is hired into that base? Now you're stuck in YVR or maybe YUL trying to get to YYC or YYZ etc. Also, Jazz does NOT pay for relocation unless you are reduced from a base. Also a rarity.

LTC skippers are flying their backsides off trying to keep up with the hundreds of new hires and upgrades every year. There is next to no PICUS happening as a result. So you're basically going to be paying for some PIC time in a 150 or cherokee on your own time.

Its not all roses and puppy dogs out there yet.

Heck they're trying to convince people with this program to pay for type ratings and jobs! Wait til we see what they think up next.
Update Rowdy,
There will be a formal PICUS program (not using LTCs) starting in early 2020. Which should help a little bit but still will be slow.
What a mistake that is...

We need a shortage of guys with ATPL’s to drive wages up in the industry.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by KenoraPilot »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:17 pm
Rowdy wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:09 pm
Vermont,

A few corrections. Travel on the air canada network is not free to Jazz pilots. There is a cost, and it's more than you'd think. Its also standby and loads for the last few years have been high. Commuting is a huge pain and I wouldn't recommend it. Base changes do happen fairly quickly, but you just can't count on that. What happens if the music stops tomorrow? They remove the aircraft from the base you want? everyone else is hired into that base? Now you're stuck in YVR or maybe YUL trying to get to YYC or YYZ etc. Also, Jazz does NOT pay for relocation unless you are reduced from a base. Also a rarity.

LTC skippers are flying their backsides off trying to keep up with the hundreds of new hires and upgrades every year. There is next to no PICUS happening as a result. So you're basically going to be paying for some PIC time in a 150 or cherokee on your own time.

Its not all roses and puppy dogs out there yet.

Heck they're trying to convince people with this program to pay for type ratings and jobs! Wait til we see what they think up next.
Update Rowdy,
There will be a formal PICUS program (not using LTCs) starting in early 2020. Which should help a little bit but still will be slow.
What a mistake that is...

We need a shortage of guys with ATPL’s to drive wages up in the industry.

The company will just hire DEC and/or use the clause in the contract that allows the company to force FO's that have ATPL's into CA seats (with no choice on base and type). Helping out our members attain their ATPL's is the mandate of ALPA. If you think a shortage of ATPL's will force up wages.......you haven't been paying attention
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Realistically, as long as AC flat pay is such a disgrace, wages aren’t going anywhere. And the flat pay won’t change until the resume pile thins out drastically. That will never happen as long as a kid with 250hrs can sit right seat in an airliner. The 1500hr rule sure changed the financial fortunes down south. Time for us to adopt the rule as well as stricter duty regs....fat chance!
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dhc#
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by dhc# »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:04 am
Realistically, as long as AC flat pay is such a disgrace, wages aren’t going anywhere. And the flat pay won’t change until the resume pile thins out drastically. That will never happen as long as a kid with 250hrs can sit right seat in an airliner. The 1500hr rule sure changed the financial fortunes down south. Time for us to adopt the rule as well as stricter duty regs....fat chance!
I agree and sadly until a Colgan flt 3407 type incident happens here in Canada, nothing will change.
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:04 am
Realistically, as long as AC flat pay is such a disgrace, wages aren’t going anywhere. And the flat pay won’t change until the resume pile thins out drastically. That will never happen as long as a kid with 250hrs can sit right seat in an airliner. The 1500hr rule sure changed the financial fortunes down south. Time for us to adopt the rule as well as stricter duty regs....fat chance!
I keep hearing people say this but realistically what percent of FO's started at 250 hours? My guess is 1% of 1%
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

We haven’t got that far down the resume pile yet!
It will come, barring some financial disaster or another 911 type event.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by shimmydampner »

vermont wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:00 pm
I keep hearing people say this but realistically what percent of FO's started at 250 hours? My guess is 1% of 1%
Not at AC but 250 hour FOs are ending up in the right seat of 705 turboprops and jets more often than you might think. It's not great. Kinda like running a daycare for teenage aerosexuals. A 1500 hour FO would be like a wonderful dream at this point.
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ayseven
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

HELLOOOOO!
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

KenoraPilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:05 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 pm
KenoraPilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:17 pm


Update Rowdy,
There will be a formal PICUS program (not using LTCs) starting in early 2020. Which should help a little bit but still will be slow.
What a mistake that is...

We need a shortage of guys with ATPL’s to drive wages up in the industry.

The company will just hire DEC and/or use the clause in the contract that allows the company to force FO's that have ATPL's into CA seats (with no choice on base and type). Helping out our members attain their ATPL's is the mandate of ALPA. If you think a shortage of ATPL's will force up wages.......you haven't been paying attention
Sorry, but I have to call bullshit. Encore is having a hard enough time attracting DECs, that’s exactly what’s needed at Jazz too. The PICUS program at jazz has always been a joke, just surprised that the union is continuing to make it one of their “top priorities” when it a shortage of qualified captains would actually be a benefit for us all.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Braun »

Honest question, are there any good very low hour pilots or do you feel that you are always « babysitting »?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Inverted2 »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:06 am
KenoraPilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:05 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 pm


What a mistake that is...

We need a shortage of guys with ATPL’s to drive wages up in the industry.

The company will just hire DEC and/or use the clause in the contract that allows the company to force FO's that have ATPL's into CA seats (with no choice on base and type). Helping out our members attain their ATPL's is the mandate of ALPA. If you think a shortage of ATPL's will force up wages.......you haven't been paying attention
Sorry, but I have to call bullshit. Encore is having a hard enough time attracting DECs, that’s exactly what’s needed at Jazz too. The PICUS program at jazz has always been a joke, just surprised that the union is continuing to make it one of their “top priorities” when it a shortage of qualified captains would actually be a benefit for us all.
Because when management says jump our union says how high?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Rowdy »

The expansion of the PICUS program is a hard sell for me. It solely benefits the company if they don't have to pay LTC's to move their low time, NON ATPL pilots into the left seat or help them off to AC. I'm also heavily against any P2F scheme like the jazz approach. I'm also not a fan of the pathways program.

KP, do you know if there is going to be a pay incentive for the captains who agree to doing PICUS?
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

Rowdy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:56 am
The expansion of the PICUS program is a hard sell for me. It solely benefits the company if they don't have to pay LTC's to move their low time, NON ATPL pilots into the left seat or help them off to AC. I'm also heavily against any P2F scheme like the jazz approach. I'm also not a fan of the pathways program.

KP, do you know if there is going to be a pay incentive for the captains who agree to doing PICUS?
What's the issue with pathways? Low experience or something else?
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by KenoraPilot »

Rowdy wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:56 am
The expansion of the PICUS program is a hard sell for me. It solely benefits the company if they don't have to pay LTC's to move their low time, NON ATPL pilots into the left seat or help them off to AC. I'm also heavily against any P2F scheme like the jazz approach. I'm also not a fan of the pathways program.

KP, do you know if there is going to be a pay incentive for the captains who agree to doing PICUS?
Hey, I do not believe there is a pay incentive, the incentive is to support and help the ALPA membership pilots further their careers and attain their ATPLs. Yes it does help the company, but it also really helps the FO's who are struggling to find the hours for their ATPL. Why shouldn't we assist them?
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